Hot Marketing Topics for Sales - Gianna Whitver, Co-Founder, Cybersecurity Marketing Society

[00:00:00] Hey, it's Andrew just quickly before we start this episode. I want to tell you about one of my favorite podcasts the breaking through in cybersecurity marketing podcast now

[00:00:30] and together to make super useful episodes my recent favorites were the one with Ross Halli-Look who is a marketer but also just published the book cyber for builders all about how to start a cybersecurity company or the one with Joe Evangelisto the Siso at Nets by or even the one all about telling stories and cybersecurity with Mitch Maine. I could go on with quite a few more. And by the way, I'm not getting paid for this. I just really enjoy Gianna and Miria's show. Check it out. It's the breaking through in the world.

[00:01:00] And we're going through in cybersecurity marketing podcast now on with this episode for too long on this podcast we focus on just the sales site of growing a cybersecurity company. Ignored our friends on the marketing site so I decided no more in the spirit of the gettiness and shared goals and kumbaya were going to get some cyber security marketing experts on here and work together as we should be doing in every company.

[00:01:26] So I'm going to place a start in the cybersecurity marketing society itself and their founder and CEO Jenna Whitford stay tuned to learn what the good people inside the society are discussing working on and transforming. This is a good episode and it's a lot of fun too.

[00:01:41] Welcome to the cybersecurity go to market podcast where we tackle the question how can cybersecurity companies grow sales faster. I am your host Andrew monahan our guest today is Jenna Whitford founder and CEO of the cybersecurity marketing society.

[00:02:05] Jenna welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me on and you're so excited to be here. Yeah, you're not the first marketing type person let's say that I've had on the podcast we've had a couple before but you are the first practitioner like you've worked at cybersecurity companies and you're obviously a key important person in the world of cybersecurity marketing given that you run the society now how many members do you have in society right now?

[00:02:33] Wow, first off a key important person. Thank you so much very flattered have not been called important before and I like it so I hope people listening start calling me that.

[00:02:44] And we have about 2,900 members all in house full time marketers at security products and services companies and about 800 companies represented around the globe in our membership.

[00:02:58] So you're you're very inclusive a bunch of people except for sale people sounds like well we love sales people but the society was founded on the idea that marketers needed a community and we've kept it that way since then although who knows about the future and of course we have a we do have other opportunities for sales folks to engage if they want we have a conference in December and anyone who wants.

[00:03:21] Who's in sales who wants to come hang out with a bunch of marketers which is of course the most favorite thing that y'all like feel free to come in December very good and what happens inside the society was the secret things that we were looking in from the outside wish the real part of collaboration co marketing mentorship helping hands our community is built on the mission of helping marketers in this challenging technical fast paced and constantly changing industry succeed.

[00:03:51] So we have a lot of opportunities to work with each other to help each other to make connections across all these different industries security is collaborative in security marketing can be collaborative too.

[00:04:08] We have a great deal experience in marketing attack and specifically in cyber right you're at Banderas cyber for a little bit in vatira as well and then you moved on to do the society.

[00:04:19] What we thought for the audience today we would do is tap into I guess more or more recent experiences with the society right you know what's going on inside that black box that sells people are not allowed to get into.

[00:04:32] I want to say we love sales people by the way let me interrupt and say that we love sales people okay like even though it's a black box.

[00:04:39] Martin people always say that they say something very different when they're amongst themselves.

[00:04:45] So let's pick out some things to talk about right so we got three topics that you were thinking about what are we talking about inside this society that's relevant for sale so we're not talking about I don't know conversion rates on a three step email campaign right we're going to talk about the topics which are relevant for sales people.

[00:05:01] Absolutely and I just I do want to say that the society's opinion and approach is that sales is the engine of revenue for you know marketing and sales are friends just like marketing and security are friends so we everything we do is marketing should be to drive sales for the business in some end way.

[00:05:21] So things that are hot right now because we're recording in March of 2024 which is like one month away from RSA some of the hot topics that are relevant to sales people I think there's these three things i've identified so RSA conference of course because we're sending all of our teams there there's going to be a big trade show booths there's going to be parties there's going to be customers.

[00:05:42] There's going to be analysts there's going to be media there's going to be all of this happening at the Super Bowl of security and how to do it effectively efficiently and make it so that when we send our teams out there that they come back with deals and opportunities is is top of mind other things is quality of intent data and tent data is so so all of you in sales and security know that security is very competitive and you know usually venture backed at a lot of companies so there is some budget.

[00:06:12] Potentially for like tools and things that can put you ahead of the game so there's a lot of talk about intent the future of intent intent data is it working right because when you set up an intent data platform and you a lot are aligned with your sales team right we're like okay we're going to have this thing where it tells us that these types of accounts are searching for tools that are similar to ours and therefore we can all prioritize better and try to be more like efficient and intent full with our with what we're doing to get customers.

[00:06:40] There's a lot of talking internally about does that work is it working is it bullshit is it not so that is absolutely something that work that marketers in the industry are talking about you know behind these closed doors about like hey I bought this is it what do you see I bought this what do you see is it working is a driving pipeline oh they want me to pay more like that's some of the conversations we're having and then also a big topic because of the economy and where we are in the stage and in the

[00:07:10] you know the big curve fluff all of layoffs and budget reduction and all of that is brand and how brand is being left behind and of course you're like well that's like way far up in the funnel that doesn't have anything to do with sales brand drives demand and brand builds trust so if you are like I really just had a conversation about this yesterday

[00:07:32] trust opens doors trust and trust in your brand and being a trusted company helps people come to you and also know you it's so much easier for anyone to say I work at Paula you know Paula also networks then like I work at little baby company that no one's ever heard of the doing something that

[00:07:53] that might go under in two years right yeah so trust and brand building is a huge topic always in this society and especially now given that budgets have been cut so we have less money for brand it might be

[00:08:04] you know quote unquote fluffy marketing stuff right billboards and how does the logo look and like it doesn't make you feel something right but actually it's a really important engine

[00:08:14] yeah and lever for for down the funnel activities let's talk about those in turn then I'm good sure because I talked for a while

[00:08:21] I guess 1000 each one so let me see if the first one so I say I love the way you said that a super bowl of our world right to other people have said it before me I copied them

[00:08:31] it's a some people is the biggest reunion you can go to to others it's a great venue to find new opportunities let me kind of paint what I think might be bad behavior or not our

[00:08:42] missed opportunity right and that's the company that says okay I'm going to get my booth my whatever is 10 by 10 or maybe go smaller and one of these 6 by 4s or whatever it might be they spend who knows how much money

[00:08:54] you can tell me how much people spend to get these booths and then everyone just stands there in the booth and they kind of wait for everybody to come to them and you can walk

[00:09:01] pass and you see you know 10 people in the booths they're all got the vendors shirt on and no one's talking to them and they're not

[00:09:09] talking to anyone else in themselves they look at their phone they're eating a sandwich yes yes and they're waiting for things to come

[00:09:15] so how do we not do that time you know what's what's the much better way to approach this so this is so I am very militant about booth and booth look and booth

[00:09:25] activity so I will tell you this my in caught for 4 summers I worked as a traveling flower sales woman so we would load up a truck with flowers like a

[00:09:35] refrigerated box track like the decent size truck and they then they gave the keys to these you know young folks in college you've

[00:09:42] never driven a truck and we would drive up and down the east coast and all over the country putting up tables

[00:09:49] and then putting out flowers in these heavy like water filled buckets we would bring like hundreds of flowers to

[00:09:55] these events and we'd sell them at colleges for you know for commencement ceremonies basically and I love this job

[00:10:01] I loved it a lot and the one thing I took out the main thing I took away from that job is you must look every single person in the eye walking

[00:10:09] past you engage them regardless of what they look like regardless of anything you always there was a phrase we as always

[00:10:16] be holding you always had to hold the flower up your arm would be hurting like crazy at the end of the day always had to be holding

[00:10:22] the product up this was a physical product there wasn't a SaaS security solution but always had to be smiling friendly engaging

[00:10:28] people cage like it on a table and do carnival barking like this is that was my that influenced because I was one

[00:10:35] of the best sales people there again flowers not security solutions that that influenced my everything every trade

[00:10:43] activity I've ever done since then if you're at the booth you got to be like someone that someone wants

[00:10:50] to talk to you got to be smiling you got to be welcoming friendly welcoming you got to talk to people you got to be like hey there

[00:10:57] like you know people who don't want to engage one engage but there are lots of people who are curious

[00:11:02] to be walking by and are willing to talk you know if there's some sort of engagement thing at your booth that gets people

[00:11:08] in a line to your booth where you can give the pitch to every single person you have to be like awake alive welcoming

[00:11:15] and you have to go out there also for security and stuff right I don't have my sales people always at the booth

[00:11:21] you should also be at the conference meeting people as well I don't know Andrew what your thoughts I'm I'm

[00:11:27] raving I feel like I'm like talking too much here let me ask you a higher level higher level question so

[00:11:32] so sometimes on the on the podcast I've got a made up company called cyber donut all right cyber cyber donut is

[00:11:39] a company with I think we say series A or seed they've got five to eight sales people they've got 20

[00:11:46] customers they're trying you know classical early stage cyber company they've got some of the other thing is really

[00:11:51] cool they try and make that mark should they even have a booth that are say depends they could do

[00:11:56] early stage expo early stage booth actually gets a decent amount of traffic I would say there are definitely

[00:12:02] folks at RSA who are looking we're walking around looking for future investments also say RSA is

[00:12:08] also an a VC show like this is a place to go meet investors as well there is media opportunities

[00:12:14] that RSA and the early stage expo booth is not that expensive so I can't remember off the top of my head

[00:12:20] because it's been a while since I've done early stage but it's cheaper than the regular booth size and then what

[00:12:27] you are is that you do have a presence at RSA right the other and I got it you didn't say how many

[00:12:35] marketers work at cyber donut by the way Andrew how many marketers work there there's two there's a leader

[00:12:40] and then there's someone who takes a lot of slack it does all the hard work okay so there's like a

[00:12:45] product marketer and a devan gen person maybe or VP of marketing and like an ops person okay cool so the other

[00:12:53] so it's hard to say so I don't want that to be like Giannis says all all series a cyber donut company

[00:12:58] should go and have a booth at RSA I'm just saying that the actually it's these huge conferences I think

[00:13:03] the early stage stuff is more can be more valuable than the later stage yeah like they could be

[00:13:10] more valuable for early stage companies then later stage companies depending on how you do it a lot of

[00:13:14] factors involved the other thing you could do is attend and just walk around you can as a

[00:13:20] marketer join the cyber security marketing society and find a co-marketing party opportunity

[00:13:24] you can have a party with someone else and just put the cost there yeah and then get like a bunch

[00:13:28] of people in a room together and you're in there with them you know with them and with your co-partner so

[00:13:35] you can also get when you get a suite right and share the cost of a suite within our two or three

[00:13:40] companies yeah get a cost of a suite have your VCs and have your investors in introducing people go

[00:13:46] and hit up the media while you're there there's less and less media every year at these big conferences but

[00:13:51] they're still there you'll have an opportunity if you're a founder or your head of product is trying to

[00:13:56] court the analyst the analysts are there there's a lot people should talk RSA conference for

[00:14:02] a lot of reasons both valid and invalid and there is ways to make it work at various sizes stages

[00:14:09] and budgets trying to think so I went to the early stage x but last couple years and you're dead right I

[00:14:14] was I saw that it was off in a different room I was out this is going to be disaster right who's

[00:14:19] going to who's going to go up there right I want to that room it was packed every time I went in there

[00:14:23] there was people there was you know proper people as well not t-shirt baggers right proper people walking

[00:14:29] around with titles you know because they want to go and learn about these new companies I was

[00:14:33] super impressed with that and in talking to some of the founders that were there they were like yeah

[00:14:38] this is actually you know good use of their time the money they spent the whole thing and where

[00:14:42] I've had more successful shows is where we put a lot of effort into booking meetings ahead of

[00:14:47] time yes having a some sort of access to a meeting space a suite or something and it was less

[00:14:53] stress on the sales team because you're literally becoming someone who gets people to attend a suite

[00:14:58] because it's a good idea right but they're very valuable both for top of funnel but also

[00:15:03] from mid funnel opportunities as well right you get to get the CEO the founder of the CTO in

[00:15:08] a room with your five biggest deals you know it's very valuable exactly your customers are there

[00:15:14] people forget your existing customers are there like what you know mid funnel like you said

[00:15:19] the stuff that's known the pipeline that's progressing you get to meet face to face when do we

[00:15:23] get to do that all of our customers are across the country like across the world people come to RSA

[00:15:29] internationally from other countries people come from Singapore people come from India like they're

[00:15:33] where you're selling there is a it's not 100% chance there's a chance your existing customers

[00:15:38] are going to be there and like anytime my opinion anytime we can like schmooz and hang out with our

[00:15:44] existing customers get them excited put your face in front of them remind them that you're a person

[00:15:49] and they like working with you as a person and as a company like that is goal yeah yeah for sure

[00:15:54] where do you stand on the gimmicks to get people to your booth the last year there was a Tom Cruise

[00:16:00] looking like there was a t-shirt printing going on there's people of bars where do you stand on that

[00:16:05] source stuff I love gimmicks I'm gonna say it I like the gimmicks it gets people in your booth

[00:16:09] and then you could pitch your product while they're waiting in line or you could talk to them

[00:16:12] while you're waiting in line and also is the people like gimmicks because people like fun

[00:16:16] it's even in our stressed out like very serious industry

[00:16:21] real humans people like fun it's cool that Tom it's silly and fun that Tom Cruise was there I was at that

[00:16:28] booth that was the pick is booth I the Tom Cruise look like people were there people were coming to take

[00:16:33] photos and then they would go to the to the to the counter they had and they talked to the founder

[00:16:38] and like chat and like grab a coffee like if you're gonna do a booth you an element of fun is wonderful

[00:16:45] you saw the Wiz booth that was just wacky wasn't it awesome it was so weird it was like oh we're in like okay

[00:16:52] we're in like what was it it was how geez you know the movie it's not Allison Wonderland's the one with

[00:16:59] the red shoes clicking together I want to go home I want to go home

[00:17:03] everyone out you take me back to time my life I've got to

[00:17:07] yeah Kansas oh Wizard of Oz thank you oh my God yeah that was so fun it was just like they had

[00:17:14] like a magician it was of course there's some people who are going to be like like all these boots

[00:17:19] are like just this is like a freak show but a lot of people like it well that's the thing right so you

[00:17:25] know it is polarizing it makes you an easy target for those that are grumpy about stuff like that I get

[00:17:31] that right sure what would you prefer would you prefer to be standing there in your little small little

[00:17:36] booth and just hope he will come to you because you got some brochures or you got a nice screen with a demo

[00:17:40] on it or you have some way to drag people in that some of you might get put off by it right you have to be

[00:17:44] okay with that but you at least you get people to talk to and engage with a guest right exactly invite you

[00:17:50] know you have some sort of experience that people can that is unique and different and it's like huh

[00:17:55] that was neat so of course that like you know people say oh the ceasos aren't walking around RSA

[00:18:00] like trade show booth okay why not that's not true too maybe less these those are sure but

[00:18:06] there's also the rest of the buying team there's like the people who use the product yeah also walking around

[00:18:11] and sure it's polarizing but you can't please everybody all the time no you need to do something to stand

[00:18:16] out exactly if you feel your customers do not like it then like you said don't have a booth just come

[00:18:21] in like running airplane or helicopter ride and invite customers that way what was the best thing you've

[00:18:27] seen what's the thing that you love you look like those guys were bold they went something I did a helicopter

[00:18:32] I don't know why right what have you seen that you've loved recently oh in all of my years at RSA RSA

[00:18:39] conference sorry because RSA is a security company

[00:18:42] though it's I already talked about it but the Wiz booth stands out I think the Sentinel one tree

[00:18:50] stands out from a small perspective from like a smaller company perspective I love the house

[00:18:56] I hope I'm pronouncing the right the house on booth it just makes you feel like you're stepping into a surf

[00:19:02] it's the orange kind of glow thing they had right yeah it just makes you feel like you're stepping

[00:19:06] into a surf club on the beach right mark blitz I don't remember what company he was at I think it was

[00:19:13] mark blitz he was doing he did one year just like Hawaiian themed like and then they gave away

[00:19:21] ridiculous prizes they gave away like humongous blow up surfboards and like humongous blow up pool toys

[00:19:28] so they easy to pack in your suitcase but then you come home with this like pool toy that's probably

[00:19:32] worth like $200 like this insane ridiculous thing there's been a lot of great at RSA over the years

[00:19:38] there was one I'm going to concentrate myself a little bit because I remember what this company did last

[00:19:45] year but I don't remember the company so I don't know if this means it doesn't work

[00:19:49] but it is something really interesting they had they had a pretty big booth and they had one wall

[00:19:55] of the outside of their booth and it was like a wall of heroes and it was all their customers

[00:20:00] and it was photos of people not just logos it wasn't a NASCAR slide on a wall right it was actual people

[00:20:07] here's the VP of security architecture or whatever and some quote and here's the their pictures on there

[00:20:12] I thought that is that is cool right make them the hero of the story right and then maybe direct people to it

[00:20:18] and people could as I did I stopped and started reading about all these people what they were saying

[00:20:22] that's wonderful so so you and I don't remember exactly but their customers remember the people

[00:20:27] on the wall will remember in the friends of those people will remember yeah because they probably

[00:20:31] went by and took a photo and said oh my gosh you're on the side of the booth here like hey I was

[00:20:36] walking past and I recognized you on the X brand booth right and what a nice gesture also

[00:20:41] by the company I think so I think it was the same company where the show they put on the picture

[00:20:47] the picture the speech they put on every hour right the five minute whatever was always done by a customer

[00:20:52] not by their SE or their rep or their CTO or founder it was all done by a customer

[00:20:57] I thought that right there and they had a big crowd right because it's you know it's a little bit different

[00:21:01] it's real life stuff yeah it's like hey I am using this product to solve this problem

[00:21:06] or this problem matters to me or here's my thought I don't know what the talks were about

[00:21:10] but I assume they're and generally related to the product

[00:21:13] yeah yeah yeah they were well let's let's RSA I love RSA it's a lot of fun tiring but fun

[00:21:21] let's go to number two in 10 data let me this is maybe where you were going with this

[00:21:25] my first inkling of intent data was a number of years ago I was at a super early stage start up

[00:21:31] and we bought I don't know which service it was and I got a note through for the marketing team

[00:21:37] saying Wells Fargo is interested in our stuff because the intent data thing triggered this

[00:21:42] this and this we should go target Wells Fargo and I said well there's 10,000 people in

[00:21:47] in an IT Wells Fargo where do you suggest I star right yeah that was that's where the conversation ended

[00:21:54] right so I had something to say well I know probably of 10,000 people someone was looking at

[00:21:58] I don't doubt that but I need more than that right there's something more I can go with

[00:22:02] so is that an unfair characterization of intent data might like kind of

[00:22:06] result sales persons view of it or where are the state of intent data these days

[00:22:10] so I'm not invested in any intent data solution and I've used quite so I have like no sort of

[00:22:16] like yeah intent data or like boo intent data this provider that provider I have purchased

[00:22:22] a bunch of different solutions for the companies that I have worked at all the way from

[00:22:27] like the account level and some things just come with like a zoom info package right

[00:22:31] like web insights you can see oh we expect that Wells Fargo is on the website and it's like okay

[00:22:37] who there is like you said a million people who work in Wells Fargo

[00:22:41] like a bunch of them are in IT insecurity

[00:22:44] banks have the biggest security teams who the heck was on this site and why

[00:22:48] what do they do and where they you know are they relevant so there's varying levels of intent data solutions

[00:22:56] when I early on in the game when I purchased my first one I had one that gave you

[00:23:00] the location of where that part of where the search was coming from and of course that's not perfect

[00:23:05] but it was always cool to see even though because you can use this you can check this

[00:23:11] against your existing customer traffic right you can check that you know the intent provider

[00:23:16] said that you know someone from Wells Fargo went to your website and was on your pricing page

[00:23:22] in you know Indianapolis and then you could look at your pub spot and you can say oh

[00:23:28] okay Joe Schmo who's the IT director at Wells Fargo and lives in Indianapolis

[00:23:32] visited our pricing page there's ways to kind of it's not foolproof

[00:23:35] there's ways to do a little checking of like okay and it involves a lot of work

[00:23:40] and like digging so should marketing package that up then and say we did the

[00:23:45] we did the groundwork the next bit here's what we found here's the possible 15 people

[00:23:49] could be or do you want to hand that to sale is they look you got to run with this

[00:23:52] and figure this out yourself before purchasing any intent solution you guys

[00:23:56] should have that figured out before okay this is not like marketing purchases

[00:24:00] something and then shows it on to sales and says look at this you know

[00:24:04] that's one I think that actually that's one of my biggest mistakes if we go

[00:24:08] back to that question is once in an over zealous super happy aggressive

[00:24:13] like oh my god this amazing intent data product will well help us

[00:24:17] determine you know help us because right these accounts if you're I've all

[00:24:22] my lives in my life at the like the series a level right so you're targeting

[00:24:26] enterprise is where I've lived my life you're targeting enterprise these accounts are

[00:24:30] huge these accounts are prestigious these accounts have 5 million people trying to

[00:24:33] contact them every single other security solution and product is reaching out

[00:24:38] to these accounts how can you and their secretive how can you you know

[00:24:42] back end into who was interested in you so that we can help our sales team

[00:24:46] prioritize their time because an overwhelming just like on the security

[00:24:50] team an overwhelming amount of alerts is like kind of useless it's kind of like

[00:24:55] great attend it like 400 things are interested you know 400 ding-ding-ding's

[00:25:00] like oh focus on this focus on this like that's that that's going to make

[00:25:04] everyone insane can be not effective and not targeted right so I have made the

[00:25:09] mistake of purchasing an intense solution thinking it's really cool and not

[00:25:12] being perfect not being super aligned with sales and then when the alerts

[00:25:16] come in they're like what do I do with this and I'm like can you reach out can

[00:25:19] you try and target here's some material like we're going to run ads but

[00:25:22] it's not aligned so we don't have a plan in advance the point that I'm trying

[00:25:26] to get to here is as you have to have your plan in advance right Andrew

[00:25:29] right no be different for different companies it might be like we have a

[00:25:31] we have an awesome SDR team and they're going to be super aggressive or it

[00:25:34] might be like oh let's plan an event around that and then let's can you

[00:25:37] guys invite you know prospects to the event you know and and we'll have it

[00:25:41] themed around this thing we think these customers might be more open to

[00:25:45] accepting this invite because we see that they're on our website and we

[00:25:49] maybe know directionally where they live so it's we think it's these 10

[00:25:52] people and it's also up to like how much revops you have also because

[00:25:56] there's a lot of like manual shit involved in all of this and when you

[00:25:59] look inside the society is the general feeling just still big optimism

[00:26:03] about intent data is it like we've been hit so hard or things so

[00:26:08] hard about this a few times we're not so sure but anymore where's the

[00:26:11] general feeling optimistic because it's one of the few ways that we can

[00:26:15] be able to understand web traffic at a better level it helps us make

[00:26:20] better decisions it helps marketing potentially make more targeted

[00:26:25] you know campaigns and things right like oh like these companies

[00:26:30] helps us be better at our ABM strategy if we're going after key accounts

[00:26:34] with our with our sales teams if we're doing that together so I think

[00:26:38] it's it's an a trust but verify phase sort of like intent data is cool

[00:26:43] if you can get it that's awesome it's not going to solve all of your

[00:26:46] problems right so one more data point then to say yeah this should

[00:26:51] be a real part of this company let's do some ABM against this company

[00:26:55] because we've had some things on the on the intent site right yeah I

[00:26:59] mean like it is gold to see like X company visited your pricing

[00:27:03] page or something like how is how amazing is that to run that as a

[00:27:07] signal into your system if someone's on your pricing page that means

[00:27:11] they most likely are looking to purchase or exploring options so

[00:27:17] it gives you it definitely can give you an advantage if it's set up

[00:27:20] leave in it and if you trust it it can give you an advantage of

[00:27:23] where even potential future RFPs future things might be coming down

[00:27:28] the line yeah that's great yeah I think it's so much promise there

[00:27:31] and it seemed like I mean my story was from probably I don't know

[00:27:35] six seven years ago so nascent of intent data in those days

[00:27:39] I'm sure it's matured a lot yeah but yeah a lot of promise wouldn't

[00:27:42] win them well it's very expensive to is it the providers are very

[00:27:46] expensive yeah so there's a lot of like okay and just like any

[00:27:50] tech tool you buy there's a lot of promise in it and then

[00:27:54] it's on you to figure out if it's worth it I love your analogy of

[00:27:58] alerts though right it is the classic you know good news is we can

[00:28:02] you know these alerts bad users now you have to figure out which ones

[00:28:04] to go after and how to treat as them and who do a silence

[00:28:08] and that yeah what's a level one what's what's like a hot hot hot

[00:28:12] you know it's easy to trade show it's like the person who wants

[00:28:15] to book the next meeting but then all this digital stuff it's hard to

[00:28:18] it's part of the whole structure and process and what marketing

[00:28:21] should be doing is like helping both drive those that stuff in

[00:28:25] and then also determining like what's hot yeah you know okay

[00:28:29] we believe because of these signals this is like a really good

[00:28:33] opportunity like like a more than X percent chance of someone

[00:28:36] like we're applying to you if you actually reach out yeah

[00:28:40] you know let's learn a bit more about you personally I've got

[00:28:46] listed 35 questions here when you pick three numbers to be more than

[00:28:49] 35 now we got the corresponding questions for you cool I choose

[00:28:54] one two three four five now I'm just kidding how about 13

[00:28:58] seven and 29 okay first one is how did you first make money as

[00:29:04] a kid I didn't make money as a kid we didn't have allowance

[00:29:08] and we didn't have I didn't have a side hustle job I think if

[00:29:12] you can count 14 as a kid though which I think actually

[00:29:15] looking back 14 is quite young that was when I got my first

[00:29:18] job at McDonald's it was the summer of eighth grade

[00:29:22] and I went to go work at the local McDonald's and that's when

[00:29:25] I started making money they were they're applying 14 year

[00:29:28] old and McDonald's in those days I don't think they do that anymore

[00:29:30] no they don't they raised it was in New Jersey and shortly

[00:29:33] after they raised it I think to 15 minimum but I was in early I

[00:29:37] was a grand fathered in as a 14 year old so that's that's great

[00:29:41] the second one was seven all right most embarrassing moment

[00:29:45] in your marketing career I've done all the traditional embarrassing

[00:29:48] things such as send the email out to people with you know

[00:29:52] the blanks in it I've done the flood what the product does

[00:29:58] at the trade show booth I've done that but my most embarrassing

[00:30:01] moment was when my boss was talking to someone and he assumed

[00:30:05] that I had done something a task that I need to do and that

[00:30:09] and I had not and the person he was talking to was like

[00:30:12] this isn't done and he got mad at them and it was a third

[00:30:16] party it was a not internal to the company and so I had to

[00:30:20] tell him no I didn't do that yet and I'm planning to but I

[00:30:23] didn't so it made him look them or bad and that that was

[00:30:26] what I hated that that was one of my worst moments did you

[00:30:30] step in and say stop stop stop don't blame the blame me or

[00:30:33] do you let him go a little bit and and recover afterwards well

[00:30:36] it was I was not on the call so I could not say anything

[00:30:39] so after the fact he was like I told them you did it and I was

[00:30:41] like I did not sorry Todd never put your boss at that

[00:30:47] position like that right no I don't want that to do that

[00:30:50] was he someone that would go off on the third party then is

[00:30:52] that no he's not he's he's a wonderful wonderful person he was

[00:30:56] just it was just not it was my fault and it was it was not

[00:31:01] it was not a good look for me or for him or for us and that

[00:31:04] was my most embarrassing moment and the last one you had

[00:31:08] here's the question what is the story behind you getting

[00:31:11] into your first job in cybersecurity this one is is a

[00:31:16] little weird and it makes me think that at my heart I'm a

[00:31:20] salesperson too so I'm glad to be on this podcast easy now

[00:31:23] don't be claiming things don't you know so oh wow like six

[00:31:28] seven years ago I was working for South by Southwest pitch

[00:31:31] identifying interesting startups to invite to come pitch at their

[00:31:35] big conference in Austin I was doing that on the side I had

[00:31:38] invited they had a security category and I'd always

[00:31:41] loved cyber like as a layperson as much as a layperson

[00:31:44] could I was always like who is strong password how cool you know

[00:31:48] stuff like that and so I had invited this interesting company

[00:31:52] that was in based in Baltimore I was like oh here's a cool start

[00:31:55] up and they got in and they got to come and pitch on stage a

[00:31:58] South by in front of a huge room of investors and potential

[00:32:01] prospects and customers at the big conference they have in

[00:32:05] Austin Texas every year at South by and I was feeling like

[00:32:09] I wanted to change my industry was in commercial real-state

[00:32:13] investment development at the time and I had previously that

[00:32:16] experience in tech and so I went up to them and I was like hey

[00:32:19] great job oh my gosh I can't believe you got here that this

[00:32:22] amazing and you guys need a marketing help and they said maybe

[00:32:25] and then what I did was I emailed them every two weeks for the

[00:32:29] next four months until I got a job there and that's how we got into

[00:32:34] cyber that's some good persistence right there yeah that is

[00:32:38] some persistence and and when I did eventually leave the company

[00:32:41] that was in the email that my boss sent to everybody at the

[00:32:45] company announcing that I was leaving so it was like

[00:32:50] that's one of my proudest moments I think and just like

[00:32:53] everyone just like most people I tripped I almost like

[00:32:56] tripped and fell into it into cyber security what about

[00:33:00] that move then what was the thing that worried you the most

[00:33:03] that you're saying I really want to do this but unless

[00:33:05] a sure but this thing here well what worried me was that

[00:33:09] maybe I had become rusty because I was working in again

[00:33:12] commercial real-state investment and development I had worked

[00:33:15] in tech marketing before but it been several years what

[00:33:18] worried me was that was was was that I was rusty when I got

[00:33:22] into the industry it was very different it was even

[00:33:24] different than my big tech job it was wow this is really

[00:33:28] weird there's so many acronyms there's so much going on

[00:33:31] there's all these buyers who are you know grumpy we're

[00:33:35] trying to reach these various titles like all the titles

[00:33:38] mean the same thing but they're also different and it was

[00:33:42] just a lot to wrap my head around and that's actually

[00:33:44] why the society was founded so I had met my co founder

[00:33:48] Maria Velasquez just she worked at a different security company

[00:33:52] at the time she worked at a day to day to die old company

[00:33:54] I worked at a threat intelligence company that we didn't

[00:33:56] compete and I was asking her question about the industry

[00:33:58] I was like what is RSA like what the hell is black at like

[00:34:01] like basic stuff that just coming from another industry

[00:34:05] you're like boom your head explodes you're like this is so

[00:34:08] weird so she she basically took my hand and helped me

[00:34:11] enter this industry and showed me the ropes and it was

[00:34:14] so amazingly helpful to me and that's why we started

[00:34:17] the society because I said hey wouldn't it be cool if

[00:34:20] we had instead of just me and you like learning and

[00:34:22] growing together because I I was giving her you know she

[00:34:25] would ask me things I would ask her things and we'd share

[00:34:27] our thoughts in our experiences in marketing I was

[00:34:30] like what if we invite like we forgot more people

[00:34:33] together so we started a slack community with 10 people

[00:34:35] in it and then it's just basically organically ground

[00:34:38] to where we are today wow I didn't know that part of the

[00:34:40] story that's awesome yeah it's um it was weird entering

[00:34:44] this industry and the help of others is what made me

[00:34:48] successful and we want to pass that on to other people

[00:34:51] and you mentioned Maria she's your co-host as well on

[00:34:53] your podcast weren't I will butcher the name so let you

[00:34:56] to say the name of the podcast absolutely it is a long

[00:35:00] name it is breaking through in cybersecurity marketing

[00:35:03] there is also podcasts out there called breaking through

[00:35:06] in cybersecurity but we're we through marketing at the end

[00:35:08] on the end there and it is on the cyber wire network

[00:35:12] N2K's cyber wire network

[00:35:15] let's move on to to branch yeah anyone that's been

[00:35:21] listening to podcasts for a while would have heard me

[00:35:24] rant about this a little bit and I'll give you my point

[00:35:27] of view and I'd love to get your thoughts from the

[00:35:29] society is that let's fight no I don't know I think

[00:35:33] you might like what I say as I feel like you know

[00:35:36] 3,700 vendors in cybersecurity plus a couple of

[00:35:40] thousand resellers and a couple hundred consultants

[00:35:43] it's very noisy all the all the channel right

[00:35:46] you'd like to say reseller there's also the MSPs

[00:35:48] the MSPs the MSSPs the vars system integrators

[00:35:51] there's thousands of them right yeah and my point

[00:35:54] is this is not a time to be timid right this is the

[00:35:57] time to really think through your brand to think

[00:36:00] through about how you want to have people meet you

[00:36:03] for the first time online or might be and get an

[00:36:06] impression of you this is a time to actually be bold

[00:36:09] about these things and maybe you know splash a little

[00:36:12] bit so that people can notice you and and get an

[00:36:14] impression you know was lots of good things was

[00:36:16] it over the years right we could spend that

[00:36:18] are talking about one of the things that I looking

[00:36:20] for the outside was they've not been shy about you

[00:36:24] know being very they look a certain way how they engage

[00:36:27] in a certain way the messaging is tied into all that

[00:36:30] you don't have a very good job I can look at

[00:36:32] was I look at mandient back in the day mandient was

[00:36:35] a the absolute trusted you know people to go

[00:36:38] to anything to do with breaches and investigations

[00:36:41] and we did call on the experts it was like default

[00:36:43] to mandient right and that was hard once we came

[00:36:45] in mandient and you know how we how we went

[00:36:47] about going to market so I think it's super important

[00:36:49] I my general impression is that not enough

[00:36:52] companies are putting enough effort and time

[00:36:54] into doing this well I don't know what you're seeing inside

[00:36:56] the society yeah I mean I we literally we just had

[00:36:59] an episode you guys can it'll be coming out soon

[00:37:02] hopefully with are you a block head of brand at

[00:37:05] island no island popped on the scene just like

[00:37:08] a fully formed company you're just like whoa

[00:37:11] this came out of stealth and it's like like

[00:37:13] a real company um and I think that use case

[00:37:17] the use case of whiz like the example set

[00:37:20] that we just mentioned do show the value of brand

[00:37:23] the problem is is that brand is not

[00:37:25] attributable right so brand how do you if

[00:37:29] you want to run a billboard or a big

[00:37:31] campaign or do something really cool

[00:37:33] that you cannot track back to clicks

[00:37:35] or to um you know sales force pipeline

[00:37:39] or anything that's like a quote-unquote

[00:37:42] metric if you want to spend if you are a

[00:37:44] sell a stealth company a series A and

[00:37:47] the marketing team says hi we want to

[00:37:49] spend $300,000 on the brand like

[00:37:52] or something like that 50,000 plus right

[00:37:55] how how is that getting through you have

[00:37:59] to have a team set in place that

[00:38:01] understands the value of the trust building

[00:38:04] that brand creates and for most small

[00:38:07] companies start up series A early

[00:38:09] companies there that's not that's

[00:38:12] that is an investment that doesn't show

[00:38:14] ROI off the bat it's not producing leads

[00:38:17] right yeah salesperson not sitting there

[00:38:19] going I love that thing you did here's

[00:38:21] a lot of the things I got from it yeah

[00:38:23] and then you know when people things

[00:38:25] aren't going you're great and there's

[00:38:27] no flood a pipeline and fingers

[00:38:29] starting to get point a little bit

[00:38:31] start to always spend $300,000 on

[00:38:33] brand and what do we get from that right

[00:38:35] is that right we did like a logo

[00:38:37] right people think it's it's arts

[00:38:39] and crafts its design that it doesn't

[00:38:40] matter right they think it's arts

[00:38:42] and crafts and nimi rick and berg use

[00:38:44] that who was the cmo at simplify

[00:38:46] which was acquired by Google a couple

[00:38:48] years ago now he says you know

[00:38:50] that's the idea that marketing

[00:38:53] is arts and crafts department

[00:38:55] that we run around if we like

[00:38:57] we're like oh pretty colors

[00:38:59] and like oh pens at the booth you

[00:39:02] know stuff like that right of course

[00:39:04] we have to do we have to have a

[00:39:06] curvy cohesive brand identity we

[00:39:07] have to have swag for the booth

[00:39:08] right these are things that need

[00:39:09] to happen in their important I'm going

[00:39:11] to say that brand is not logo though

[00:39:13] right this is what people know no brand

[00:39:15] is like logos a piece of brand

[00:39:17] is the identity and feeling of

[00:39:19] the company it is that trust

[00:39:21] builder yeah so but it's just

[00:39:23] it's just going to be impossible

[00:39:25] for many companies to invest in

[00:39:27] that it's truly impossible so I

[00:39:29] think a good example one because

[00:39:32] of budget to because of leadership

[00:39:34] who don't who don't believe in

[00:39:35] that sort of thing and I totally

[00:39:37] understand we're see yous and

[00:39:38] founders you know are coming

[00:39:40] from they're like okay we have

[00:39:42] X amount of runway we've X burn

[00:39:44] right hard hard to marketers I gave

[00:39:46] them X budget and we have a sales

[00:39:48] team like we need to get deals in

[00:39:49] before we can invest but that's

[00:39:51] just the state of the industry

[00:39:53] and brand I think is more important

[00:39:54] than ever in this industry yeah

[00:39:56] I kind of feel like it's I think

[00:39:58] I heard it's now GD already is I don't

[00:40:00] think it's my own but it's like you

[00:40:02] know deciding to build a car and then

[00:40:04] you know saying that your investment

[00:40:06] in the design of the car and the way

[00:40:08] it looks at slide is somehow not

[00:40:09] going to help you all buy right

[00:40:11] the car you've got to look at as a whole

[00:40:13] and say look is a package of goods

[00:40:14] and I heard someone else say you

[00:40:16] got to look at these things as almost

[00:40:18] like a VC might investments we're going

[00:40:20] to put some dollars behind 10 programs

[00:40:22] and I can sit there and go well

[00:40:24] program nine delivered you know

[00:40:26] 832 mql's that turned into this much

[00:40:28] pipeline right you look at the package

[00:40:30] of goods that you're you're you're

[00:40:32] putting out there to try and try

[00:40:34] and get some attention there yeah it

[00:40:36] powers it powers your demand brand

[00:40:38] really does power demand we had a

[00:40:40] Tom went or a CMO at recorded

[00:40:42] the market in the last year and

[00:40:44] that was that was a message we were

[00:40:46] trying to flow throughout the conference

[00:40:48] which is don't forget about brand

[00:40:50] because brand is the first thing that's cut

[00:40:52] like we're okay budget cut are we going

[00:40:54] to cut like all these lead gen programs

[00:40:56] no we're going to cut the brand stuff

[00:40:58] and it's tough so I love that a CEO

[00:41:00] of a cyber security company was out there

[00:41:02] speaking getting some attention making a splash

[00:41:06] do we see enough of that do you think

[00:41:08] out there. Cios for startups.

[00:41:10] Tom was the CMO but the for CEOs that oh

[00:41:16] I love a good forward facing CEO marketers.

[00:41:18] So here's the thing when evaluating

[00:41:20] like new companies how splashy can

[00:41:22] your CEO be is actually important

[00:41:24] is actually something I would

[00:41:26] consider in my in my efforts

[00:41:28] like are they a public speaker

[00:41:30] like or they're just going to hide behind

[00:41:32] their desk and work on the technical things

[00:41:34] and not be able to share

[00:41:36] the exciting stuff about the product

[00:41:38] service to category they're creating.

[00:41:40] So yeah I do think

[00:41:42] you see CEOs doing it well

[00:41:44] you do know I forget his name

[00:41:46] Dope security CEO

[00:41:48] Oh yeah I forgot

[00:41:50] Camille, Camille Agriwall is it

[00:41:52] I think so yes

[00:41:54] he does a great job of being like

[00:41:56] a face so on a small

[00:41:58] on a very small team

[00:42:00] everyone has to be a marketer

[00:42:02] and if your CEO is a good marketer

[00:42:04] that's such an asset to have internally

[00:42:06] I was a company

[00:42:08] Cyberskir company 10 years ago

[00:42:10] probably now and

[00:42:12] our founder CEO

[00:42:14] CTO 28-year-old

[00:42:16] but when he spoke people listened

[00:42:18] he just had that thing

[00:42:20] and it was compelling

[00:42:22] you'd see really grizzled

[00:42:24] either VCs or SISOs

[00:42:26] just start leading forward

[00:42:28] and you know paying attention

[00:42:30] and he just had that gift

[00:42:32] and then I worked at a company

[00:42:34] where I put my

[00:42:36] working from after I had

[00:42:38] experiencing both for that way

[00:42:40] and he looked at some like Mike Faye at Ireland

[00:42:42] very compelling when Mike talks

[00:42:44] as a way of doing it, Kevin Mania, George Kurtz

[00:42:46] you know these people

[00:42:48] when they talk they just had that gift

[00:42:50] of communication

[00:42:52] that people just start quoting them

[00:42:54] and they get all the attention

[00:42:56] that they deserve and probably a lot more

[00:42:58] They become your media people

[00:43:00] you know I'm going to also say same with the sales people

[00:43:02] in the world in audience

[00:43:04] I don't want to say become an influencer

[00:43:06] but that's also a boon

[00:43:08] at a previous company

[00:43:10] I worked on trying to

[00:43:12] help train and tell the sales people

[00:43:14] not tell but work with the sales people

[00:43:16] on building their own presence as well

[00:43:18] because it's a boon for your company now

[00:43:20] for your team

[00:43:22] to be like people that other people

[00:43:24] listen to

[00:43:26] and then it's a boon for your career too

[00:43:28] like if you move to it

[00:43:30] it's longer like a lifelong job

[00:43:32] so it's good for

[00:43:34] the company in the present moment

[00:43:36] to have people who are forward facing

[00:43:38] if possible, not everybody has to be

[00:43:40] but if you can

[00:43:42] before facing

[00:43:44] be someone who speaks publicly

[00:43:46] someone who can talk to media

[00:43:48] someone who can command a presence

[00:43:50] all of that

[00:43:52] that's a boon for the company now

[00:43:54] and then I would always say

[00:43:56] it's also good for your career

[00:43:58] and do the same thing

[00:44:00] and are people inside the society talking about

[00:44:02] that individual person building their brand

[00:44:04] and how it ties into the company brand

[00:44:06] is that a topic

[00:44:08] oh yeah I mean because as a marketer

[00:44:10] like the individual

[00:44:12] so in terms of

[00:44:14] hierarchy so let's just take length in as one example

[00:44:16] in terms of hierarchy of interest of posts

[00:44:18] company posts are low

[00:44:20] nobody gives a shit about your company's post

[00:44:22] like you will post

[00:44:24] you know

[00:44:26] at least great like hopefully all your employees share it

[00:44:28] right and hopefully get some attention that way

[00:44:30] but what is really interesting

[00:44:32] is when you have faces

[00:44:34] in your post

[00:44:36] posts with faces like team photos

[00:44:38] that tag people that show people

[00:44:40] always always always always

[00:44:42] get more engagement and more views

[00:44:44] and more exposure

[00:44:46] than posts that are just like

[00:44:48] cool threat thing

[00:44:50] so internally yes

[00:44:52] there's a whole like

[00:44:54] for if you're a social media manager

[00:44:56] there's this whole part of your job

[00:44:58] which is like employee presence

[00:45:00] on social platforms again

[00:45:02] I'm boiling this down to LinkedIn

[00:45:04] and that is something that we as marketers

[00:45:06] always think about

[00:45:08] can our team speak

[00:45:10] can we get more people in product to talk

[00:45:12] because usually they don't or development

[00:45:14] because usually they don't want to

[00:45:16] can we get people in front of the media

[00:45:18] can our salespeople talk on stage

[00:45:20] instead of sending our founder everywhere

[00:45:22] activities that all employees have a part of

[00:45:24] in the sort of like

[00:45:26] the social presence

[00:45:28] and influence or presence of a company

[00:45:30] if that makes sense

[00:45:32] yeah that's fascinating

[00:45:34] I was talking to friend last week

[00:45:36] and he was at an event

[00:45:38] and someone from Wiz was going to speak at the event

[00:45:40] and Dan looked

[00:45:42] at the list of speakers

[00:45:44] and the guy's name was whatever

[00:45:46] but his title was

[00:45:48] enterprise account manager

[00:45:50] he had a sales rep

[00:45:52] this is like a CIO

[00:45:54] a sales rep

[00:45:56] oh this is going to be disaster

[00:45:58] but the guy was awesome

[00:46:00] and that is he was

[00:46:02] he was the right tone

[00:46:04] he's always been trained

[00:46:06] and how to go by doing that as a seller

[00:46:08] you know the whole thing

[00:46:10] I feel like if you're as a seller

[00:46:12] you can put yourself in a position

[00:46:14] where you're able to do that

[00:46:16] and you don't feel like

[00:46:18] above everyone else

[00:46:20] and this guy was basically pretty

[00:46:22] himself in the same bucket as

[00:46:24] the CEOs who were talking at that

[00:46:26] and he was just a seller

[00:46:28] you know it was

[00:46:30] exactly he they have

[00:46:32] they do a lot of this

[00:46:34] internal I think

[00:46:36] sort of like support of the

[00:46:38] employees like you'll see

[00:46:40] Wiz is like everywhere

[00:46:42] and all the employees love Wiz

[00:46:44] and they drink the Wiz

[00:46:46] and they're very nice

[00:46:48] so in terms of the

[00:46:49] the value of the

[00:46:50] quality that you're able to

[00:46:52] accept

[00:46:54] and I think that's what I was

[00:46:55] looking at

[00:46:56] for example

[00:46:58] from our sales rep

[00:47:00] it's like a good thing

[00:47:02] to say we know that

[00:47:04] but they don't agree

[00:47:06] with the potential

[00:47:08] and they're not

[00:47:08] for that

[00:47:10] in the end

[00:47:12] of the end of the

[00:47:14] But people look down on that salesperson who can't,

[00:47:18] who do does go up and just does a pitch.

[00:47:20] So this can absolutely, if you can learn the story,

[00:47:23] learn storytelling, like work with your marketing team,

[00:47:25] ask them if they have any support or resources.

[00:47:28] To be honest, they might not

[00:47:28] because it might be cyber-donut

[00:47:30] and the two people there are desperately trying

[00:47:32] to get you set up for RSA, right?

[00:47:34] Like it might be like, ah, we don't have something right now

[00:47:38] but let them know you want to be like a forward-facing person.

[00:47:42] Like, oh, I'll speak.

[00:47:43] I'll do a video.

[00:47:44] Oh, we need a little snippet on what is MFA

[00:47:49] or like what's the state of cloud security?

[00:47:51] Have your salespeople, if you're a salesperson

[00:47:52] who wants to start being more forward-facing,

[00:47:54] like raise your hand.

[00:47:55] Of course it's not, it's not getting immediately

[00:47:58] lead to revenue for you.

[00:48:00] It's not like doing a meeting at customer prospect

[00:48:03] or something and you might be too busy as well

[00:48:05] but if you have that time, why not?

[00:48:08] I love that our discussion around brand

[00:48:10] went down to what a salesperson could do.

[00:48:12] I mean, it's not just an amplification of the company brand

[00:48:14] but they own personal brand

[00:48:16] and how you want to position yourself.

[00:48:17] And I love that we're able to get there.

[00:48:19] Jenna, this has been a great conversation

[00:48:21] we could add a time right now.

[00:48:23] Super interesting hearing the perspective that you have

[00:48:26] and also be one side of society.

[00:48:28] If someone wants to get in touch,

[00:48:29] what's the best way to do that?

[00:48:30] Absolutely.

[00:48:31] And I love to be on because I think we didn't even go

[00:48:33] through half of like beyond again

[00:48:34] because I don't think we went

[00:48:35] even through like half of our convo.

[00:48:37] Our talking points.

[00:48:39] People can contact me at Gianna at

[00:48:41] super long URL.

[00:48:43] Gianna at cyber security marketing society.com

[00:48:46] Gianna is spelled GIA and NNA.

[00:48:49] I would love to talk with anyone who wants to.

[00:48:51] Also hit me up on LinkedIn.

[00:48:52] I am listed as co-founder

[00:48:55] and CEO of the Cyber Security Marketing Society.

[00:48:57] You can find me on LinkedIn,

[00:48:58] happy to chat with anyone who wants to talk more

[00:49:00] about any of these topics.

[00:49:01] And we'll see what RSA I presume, right?

[00:49:03] Are you coming to our party?

[00:49:05] Oh, I'd be, I've not been invited.

[00:49:07] Well, it is Sunday on May 5th.

[00:49:11] It's right after the booth builds closes that day.

[00:49:13] It's at 5.30 to 7.30 at novella.

[00:49:15] It's a ticketed event, but we are marketers

[00:49:18] and we know how to throw a party.

[00:49:19] I hope to see you there.

[00:49:21] Love it.

[00:49:21] Look forward to it.

[00:49:22] Good to chat and then look forward to seeing again

[00:49:24] in San Francisco.

[00:49:25] Awesome.

[00:49:26] See you soon, Andrew.

[00:49:27] Thank you so much for having me on.

[00:49:28] Really appreciate it.

[00:49:41] It will mean a lot to me and to the continued growth

[00:49:44] of the show if you could help get the word at.

[00:49:47] So how do you do that easily?

[00:49:48] There are two ways.

[00:49:49] Firstly, just simply send a link to a friend,

[00:49:53] send a link to the show to this episode.

[00:49:56] You can email it, text it, slack it,

[00:49:58] whatever works for you and it's easy for you.

[00:50:00] The second way is to leave a super quick rating.

[00:50:04] And sometimes that can seem complicated.

[00:50:05] So I've made it as easy for you as I can.

[00:50:08] You simply have to go to ratethispodcast.com slash cyber.

[00:50:14] That's ratethispodcast.com slash cyber

[00:50:17] and explains exactly how to do it.

[00:50:19] Either of these ways will take you less than 30 seconds

[00:50:22] to do and it will mean the world to me.

[00:50:24] So thank you.