How to run a world-class POV with Alexei Rubenstein, VP of Sales, Engineering, and Customer Success at Morphisec

[00:00:00] Hey, it's Andrew. And just quickly before we start this episode, I want to tell you about one of my favorite podcasts. It's the Bare Knuckles and Brass Tax Podcast. Not only does it have a great name, it also has a really good format that's interesting. The two hosts are both named George. That's not what's interesting about it. It's that George K is on the vendor side and George A is a CISO on the customer side.

[00:00:24] And they have real conversations, sometimes with guests, about the world of vendor-customer interactions. They're not afraid to call out bad behavior on both sides and talk about the weird and wonderful nature of this world of ours in cybersecurity.

[00:00:38] Recent favors of mine are the one about building trust called Taking a Flamethrower to FUD and Buzzword Mumbo Jumbo. And also the one with someone who's a field CISO, an advisor to startups called How Security Buyers Think and Go-To-Market Strategies for Young Companies.

[00:00:55] I'm not getting paid for this promo. I just really enjoy the show that two Georges put on. Check it out. It's the Bare Knuckles and Brass Tax Podcast. Now on with this episode.

[00:01:05] In the sales process, there's always quite a few different leverage points. And it's natural normally for people to focus further up the funnel.

[00:01:13] They're looking at lead to first meeting, first meeting to opportunity, those types of conversion points.

[00:01:18] But just as important is the one from some sort of technical validation of the product through to close.

[00:01:25] It's a point in the process where resources can be heavy on our side as the vendor.

[00:01:30] You know, we're actually allocating people to handhold or work with prospects over quite a bit of time.

[00:01:35] It's also got a lot of scrutiny, right?

[00:01:38] If you've got a small number of POVs kicking off every quarter, then often that gets reported to the board.

[00:01:44] Senior management wants to know how it's doing and what's converting and what's not.

[00:01:48] And there's definitely good ways and bad ways to run that POV process,

[00:01:52] which is why I wanted to invite Alexei Rubenstein onto the podcast.

[00:01:56] He is the VP of Sales Engineering and Customer Success at Morphosec.

[00:02:02] And we're going to be talking today about the POV process.

[00:02:04] He's been running SE organizations in cyber for 12 years.

[00:02:09] And he's built POV, POC processes at five different companies over that time.

[00:02:15] So in this episode, we talk about how Cyberdonut can improve their results

[00:02:20] by changing how they do their POV process and how they get more deals through to close one.

[00:02:26] I'm Andrew Monaghan, and this is the Cybersecurity Go-to-Market podcast,

[00:02:30] where we tackle the question,

[00:02:32] how can Cyberdonut get to 10 million in ARR by the end of 2025?

[00:02:47] All right.

[00:02:48] So, Alexei, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:50] What we're doing to remind everyone is we're saving Cyberdonut.

[00:02:54] Cyberdonut has to get to $10 million of ARR by the end of 2025.

[00:03:00] Everyone can follow along with the progress.

[00:03:02] All the numbers are there quarter to quarter on Cyberdonut.com.

[00:03:07] That's C-Y-B-R-donut, D-O-N-U-T.com.

[00:03:12] There's no E in cyber in the Cyberdonut URL.

[00:03:16] So you'll follow along right there.

[00:03:17] So the situation, the update is that we're here in the middle of November 2024.

[00:03:23] We're halfway through Q4.

[00:03:25] On the advice of some people, Bill Wallace has upgraded his CRO.

[00:03:31] He's brought in Bob Bruce, who is an experienced CRO.

[00:03:36] And Bob has been spending the last couple of weeks looking at the numbers,

[00:03:39] figuring out what's going on, assessing his team, all the rest of it.

[00:03:43] And one of the things that stuck him straight between the eyes was that the conversion rate

[00:03:48] from POV to close is hovering around about 50%.

[00:03:53] I think last quarter was at 56.

[00:03:55] Before that, it was at 49, something like that.

[00:03:57] It's not good, right?

[00:03:59] Looking at that and saying, okay, we've got scarce resources.

[00:04:02] We're putting them in to try to win these POVs.

[00:04:05] And yet only half of them are ending up closing.

[00:04:07] So a priority right now for Bob as he's looking at trying to hit these numbers next year is this needs to be fixed.

[00:04:14] So we're bringing you in as an advisor to say, all right, you've run a few POVs in your time.

[00:04:21] What might be some of the things to look at?

[00:04:23] So let me ask you a very specific question.

[00:04:26] As he's assessing what actually is going on,

[00:04:30] where would you encourage him to start looking to try and figure out why is this such a low conversion rate?

[00:04:36] Yeah, I think the reality is that you need to look at the stage before you get into a POV

[00:04:43] or a discussion about a POV with the customer.

[00:04:46] The qualification, essentially the positioning of your product

[00:04:50] and the qualification of the opportunity should build to a POV.

[00:04:55] And I'll put an asterisk here, maybe not only a POV,

[00:04:58] maybe there are other ways to get beyond that technical validation phase.

[00:05:03] But it really lies in the qualification of the opportunity.

[00:05:09] Is it the right timing?

[00:05:10] Is the customer has the resources to invest into a POV right now?

[00:05:16] Did we align the expectations, the success criteria?

[00:05:20] Did we discuss all those things?

[00:05:22] And that's on the technical side, but also on the commercial side.

[00:05:25] Is there a budget?

[00:05:26] Is it this year initiative or is it a 2027 initiative?

[00:05:30] In which case we could do a POV, but why would we do POV now

[00:05:34] if we'll need to do another POV in 2027 as example, right?

[00:05:38] So spoken like a true SE where you're putting the blame on the AE or the salespeople

[00:05:42] for not doing proper qualification, right?

[00:05:44] I see where you're going with this.

[00:05:46] You know what?

[00:05:46] I'll actually say that the qualification or the positioning phase should equally be owned

[00:05:54] by the SE and the AE.

[00:05:56] And yes, there is some work on the AE side to do, no doubt, and kind of orchestrating

[00:06:03] and making sure that the commercial aspects of the deal are aligned, et cetera,

[00:06:09] and that the budget is there.

[00:06:11] And if not, understanding how budget can be created and timing, et cetera.

[00:06:15] But the qualification is equally owned by the SE and by AE.

[00:06:21] That's how I see it.

[00:06:23] Yeah, no, I'm joking a little bit.

[00:06:24] I mean, I feel like there's the business qualification, but there's also the technical qualification.

[00:06:30] You know, making sure that we're getting into deals that we can actually win because

[00:06:34] the integrations or the things we have to coexist with or their feature needs to hit the

[00:06:39] goals are all there.

[00:06:41] They're not, you know, on the roadmap, for example.

[00:06:43] So there definitely has to be the right sort of scrutiny, I guess, in partnership, right?

[00:06:48] You need to make sure the two are working well together.

[00:06:50] Yeah.

[00:06:50] And it's about mapping the right personas on the customer side and kind of sending the

[00:06:55] different people on your and on our end, the SE to discuss the technical elements and

[00:07:01] the AE to maybe to chat with the decision maker, with the economic buyer in that process.

[00:07:07] And I think setting up the expectations about what is going to happen in a POV, what they're

[00:07:12] going to see, what is the scope of that POV, the methodology that the customer is going

[00:07:18] to be using to test that technology, whatever it is, you know, on-premise appliance or a

[00:07:23] SaaS solution, doesn't matter.

[00:07:24] What is the testing methodology?

[00:07:26] Make sure that whatever they're planning to test is something that we can actually

[00:07:30] deliver.

[00:07:31] And it's something we actually do.

[00:07:32] Or to your point, if it's something on the roadmap, then maybe it's worth for us to

[00:07:36] actually slow roll it and not push for a POV if we're not ready, right?

[00:07:40] Especially in a startup environment where you try to, you see the shiny logo and you go

[00:07:46] blind about everything.

[00:07:47] Oh, Bank of America wants to talk to us.

[00:07:49] Okay.

[00:07:50] But do you deliver what they are actually looking to get?

[00:07:53] Is there a value from your product?

[00:07:56] Yeah.

[00:07:56] It's interesting.

[00:07:56] Obviously, what I've seen, and I've been guilty of this as well in the past is, you

[00:08:01] know, especially in early stage, you're not exactly flooded with opportunities usually,

[00:08:04] right?

[00:08:05] So when you get someone who's willing to go to do some sort of technical validation,

[00:08:10] this is a good thing, right?

[00:08:11] I've got a deal.

[00:08:12] I think it's a deal.

[00:08:14] It's moving down the pipeline.

[00:08:16] You know, there's usually some pressure saying we're not getting enough POCs or POVs.

[00:08:19] So good news is we've got one, right?

[00:08:21] And sometimes the rigor can kind of go away a little bit.

[00:08:25] I'm wondering if you've got any tips to help people who feel like that's happening to,

[00:08:31] I don't know, create a safe zone for people to actually say, look, I know we want to get

[00:08:34] more POVs, but this one's just not ready yet.

[00:08:37] Yeah.

[00:08:37] I think, A, I agree with you in an environment where you don't have pipeline and you kind

[00:08:42] of jump on any opportunity.

[00:08:44] You cannot say no to anything that comes your way, but that honestly leaves a lot of room

[00:08:51] for luck.

[00:08:53] And luck is part of the strategy in sales, but it's not something you can rely on heavily.

[00:09:00] I think that making sure that, again, it goes back to qualification.

[00:09:05] If there is no project or budget or the timing is not right, but you still want to do a POV

[00:09:12] because you have no other POVs at all.

[00:09:14] And maybe it's very selfish.

[00:09:15] Maybe you even want to use it as a kind of vehicle for feedback and you know that there

[00:09:20] is no deal at the end of that process.

[00:09:23] You may still want to do it, but you need to be A, transparent internally for the potential

[00:09:28] outcomes of this.

[00:09:29] And if you still want to try and get a deal out of it, it probably means that you need

[00:09:34] to be ready or your CEO primarily need to be ready to provide significant concessions to

[00:09:42] make that happen.

[00:09:44] Even though you may think that your technology is the best thing that happened since SpaceX.

[00:09:52] And that is the best thing that happened in a while.

[00:09:54] I'm really excited about all that space technology.

[00:09:58] So I like that though.

[00:09:59] You got to be transparent though.

[00:10:01] I think that maybe less experienced people might be tempted to kid themselves along a

[00:10:06] little bit, right?

[00:10:07] And they want to show that they're making progress.

[00:10:09] Especially as a seller, you want to show that things are going.

[00:10:11] But I think these are these moments where you have to be the adult in the room and say,

[00:10:16] look, we, the company, we have to make a choice.

[00:10:19] We probably won't have a deal, but there might be some benefits to going through this as a trial

[00:10:23] just to see how our POV process works.

[00:10:26] I get that, right?

[00:10:27] But a great point though.

[00:10:29] You don't want it to be on the board deck as a forecasted deal just because you went

[00:10:33] through a POV with them.

[00:10:38] All right, Alexi, let's get to know you a little bit better.

[00:10:41] We've talked about some business things.

[00:10:43] Let's talk about you.

[00:10:44] I have a list of 49 questions here.

[00:10:47] The good news is I won't ask you 49.

[00:10:49] I am going to spin the random wheel of greatness.

[00:10:53] And, you know, just so you know, this is a high-tech spinning wheel.

[00:10:57] It's powered by who knows what version of AI, probably a bit of Claude and Mod and Gemini

[00:11:03] and OpenAI and who knows what in there.

[00:11:06] Just to make sure we get completely random questions.

[00:11:09] So I'm going to spin the wheel and let's see what the first number is.

[00:11:15] Here we go.

[00:11:20] All right.

[00:11:21] Number 32.

[00:11:23] How did you first make money as a kid?

[00:11:25] Great question, Andrew.

[00:11:27] I don't know.

[00:11:27] I'm a little bit embarrassed, but my first kind of job I actually allowed to make money

[00:11:34] is in a campaign of a very right-wing oriented government official back in Israel.

[00:11:41] And one of his election campaigns, I think I was maybe nine or 10, just handing out collateral

[00:11:48] and things of that nature.

[00:11:50] But it was good money.

[00:11:51] And I don't think I really cared at the time about the politics.

[00:11:54] I can't imagine you understood much about the politics when you were nine, 10 years old.

[00:11:58] Not much for sure.

[00:11:59] Not enough for sure.

[00:12:01] Not enough for sure.

[00:12:01] Yeah.

[00:12:02] It was good money.

[00:12:03] So no complaints, no complaints.

[00:12:04] And there was no clowns with the politician pulling in a kid to go and do work for him?

[00:12:09] No.

[00:12:10] It was quite some years ago.

[00:12:13] So less strict policies around child abuse and work labor, et cetera.

[00:12:19] I didn't work difficult hours, but yeah, it was fun.

[00:12:22] All right.

[00:12:23] Let's spin the wheel again and see what we get.

[00:12:29] Oh, number two.

[00:12:31] So what is a embarrassing, memorable or funny moment that you've had in your sales work life?

[00:12:39] I think I actually have an idea or example for one that maybe includes all three.

[00:12:45] One of my trips when I used to work at the former Soviet Union countries as a sales engineer

[00:12:55] was Uzbekistan.

[00:12:56] And so one of our customers made us kind of go and have a very, very long dinner that included

[00:13:05] a lot of alcohol, which very quickly led to us going back to our hotel altogether and staying

[00:13:14] in a swimming pool until 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. or whatever, all together with a customer, right?

[00:13:19] First time we meet them.

[00:13:20] And the problem there was that we actually had a flight at 5 a.m.

[00:13:25] And at 3 a.m. I wrapped up the swimming pool, you know, shenanigans, went to my room and

[00:13:32] fell asleep on the bed.

[00:13:34] And I woke up from my boss trying to wake me up together with three of the room service

[00:13:41] folks at the hotel because we were about to be late to the flight.

[00:13:44] Basically, it was shaking me up.

[00:13:45] So yeah, that was kind of a funny, embarrassing moment.

[00:13:49] Never got back to that country again.

[00:13:51] No, I'm just kidding.

[00:13:53] I think a lot of people have that moment somewhere in your work life where you get hit like that,

[00:13:58] right?

[00:13:58] It's just things with customers or whatever, just get a little bit out of hand and you're

[00:14:01] like, oh my God, I still got work to do the next day.

[00:14:04] Yep.

[00:14:05] Yeah, or catch a flight.

[00:14:06] Or catch a flight in this time.

[00:14:08] All right, let me spin again and see what we get.

[00:14:16] 47.

[00:14:17] What is the story behind you getting your first job in cybersecurity?

[00:14:21] Well, it's kind of part of the story of many folks back in Israel who go through the Israeli

[00:14:30] defense forces.

[00:14:31] So I served in a technological unit back in the Israeli defense forces, which kind of

[00:14:37] opens the path and the gate to landing a cybersecurity or technological role.

[00:14:43] And so kind of right of military, I was 21, 22, was able to land an integration and systems

[00:14:52] engineer role, basically, in a vendor that did cybersecurity and IT security systems.

[00:14:58] And yeah, that just kind of happened.

[00:15:00] But thanks to the military service, I think in a nutshell, that's the short version.

[00:15:05] You know, I've interviewed a lot of people from Israel.

[00:15:07] Actually, I've never once heard someone say their route was through the military in Israel.

[00:15:12] So it seems like that's what everyone does there.

[00:15:15] It must have a really good recruiting system to get everyone into the right divisions inside

[00:15:21] the military and then get them out into vendors.

[00:15:24] It's certainly impressive how that's come together.

[00:15:25] Yeah, they have a very advanced, very advanced system to vet you out and basically plug you

[00:15:31] into the best place that the military can benefit out of you.

[00:15:35] But then also at the end of that road, you have a line of sight to, you know, taking your

[00:15:39] own benefit out of it.

[00:15:40] Yeah, no kidding.

[00:15:41] No kidding.

[00:15:42] In fact, today, on the date of this podcast, the announcement was that Wiz has bought Daz.

[00:15:46] So two cyber stars companies, two Israeli-based cybersecurity companies.

[00:15:52] So the mechanism is working, let's say.

[00:15:59] You know, I've used the word, I've used the phrase POV, Alexei.

[00:16:02] I've heard different things.

[00:16:04] I've heard POVs, POCs, trials, you know, all sorts of different things.

[00:16:08] I feel like this is a step that we might want to call technical validation.

[00:16:14] I think you used the words already, but we seem to default to say, well, let's do the

[00:16:18] POC.

[00:16:19] Is that something you see a lot where people just assume that's what we're going to all

[00:16:22] want to do?

[00:16:23] And is there any way to kind of avoid it sometimes?

[00:16:26] Yeah.

[00:16:26] Well, I think the industry doesn't have a standard terminology.

[00:16:30] I certainly agree with you.

[00:16:32] And I use that early on.

[00:16:35] What we do is a technical validation.

[00:16:36] And at least as I look at it, the terminology, whether it's a POV or a trial or a POC really

[00:16:44] depends on the product.

[00:16:46] If it's something that is really new, mind-blowing, it might be a concept that you're trying to

[00:16:52] prove.

[00:16:53] You're not actually, there is obviously, there should be value always, period.

[00:16:58] But it's a concept that you're trying to prove and something that the customer is like, no,

[00:17:03] no way.

[00:17:04] So POC is the right terminology definition to use.

[00:17:08] But in most companies, startup or not, mature or not, it will be a proof of value.

[00:17:15] You're trying to show the customer that where you're selling provides value to their program,

[00:17:20] company, security stack, whatever it is.

[00:17:23] At the same time, I will say technical validation, and that's my personal opinion, technical validation

[00:17:30] does not come down to actually giving the customer access to the product and hands-on.

[00:17:37] There are other ways to potentially try and get the technical win, the technical thumbs up,

[00:17:46] good to go, be it very strong references.

[00:17:49] And yes, in an early stage startup, you probably don't have those.

[00:17:53] But if you have customers that are big fans that see value, putting them on the phone with

[00:17:59] a prospect probably will drive more value than them poking around a UI for two weeks with

[00:18:06] no reason.

[00:18:07] The other thing, potentially as an alternative of a POV, could be more of a stability performance

[00:18:12] testing if we talk about some sort of a deployment, not a SaaS portal, but obviously, but some

[00:18:17] sort of a deployment of an appliance or an agent.

[00:18:20] In many cases, that's much shorter to the point kind of engagement, you know, just a few

[00:18:26] kind of specific, very well-defined success criteria use cases around that stability performance

[00:18:31] testing.

[00:18:32] Instead of, again, providing customer with a month of access to a product without actual

[00:18:38] framework or goals around that access.

[00:18:42] And, you know, and praying that they will actually poke around and see what they expected

[00:18:47] to see.

[00:18:48] That's interesting.

[00:18:48] So what I see, and maybe this is happening at Cyberdonut, is they kind of come in and they

[00:18:53] set up and they give a training, you know, to the evaluators about this is how it works.

[00:18:58] And then they kind of leave them be for a little bit and say, there you go, you know, test

[00:19:02] it out kind of thing.

[00:19:03] From what you're saying, that's not the way to do it, right?

[00:19:05] If you go to a framework you used or something you give them to make sure that they stay on

[00:19:09] track and do the work.

[00:19:10] Well, I do have a framework that I developed over the years and used across several companies

[00:19:16] I worked for in the past.

[00:19:19] And just in a high level, I will say that in general, you need to identify the right

[00:19:25] timing, not for you, but for the customer.

[00:19:28] When they can allocate the time, you need to set the boundaries.

[00:19:33] And don't be afraid to say it's a two-week POV or a one-week POV.

[00:19:36] You know your technology.

[00:19:37] You know how long it takes to test it.

[00:19:41] So you need to come with a statement.

[00:19:44] I'm not saying that if a customer says, oh, no, I need two months, you kind of, you walk

[00:19:49] away.

[00:19:49] No, you can always be flexible.

[00:19:51] But you should be able to answer the customer how long your POV should take and guide them

[00:19:58] through that time period and make sure that once you decide on a kickoff date, that is

[00:20:03] when they can allocate the two weeks that you suggested.

[00:20:08] And then it's not about setting up a kickoff and a rev up in two weeks.

[00:20:12] It's about being constantly in front of them in meetings, in emails, in best practices that

[00:20:20] you can provide, touch points with different people, try to have as many evaluators.

[00:20:26] Even if the customer tells you, no, no, it's just, you know, it's just Alexi here.

[00:20:30] He's going to evaluate the product.

[00:20:31] Try to laterally get as many people involved and see that value of the product if you already

[00:20:38] got into the place where you have to do a POV.

[00:20:41] So you'd rather say, let's slow down a little bit at the start and make sure everyone's

[00:20:45] available, commit the time and then intense period of time, rather than saying, well,

[00:20:49] here's the two month POV, right?

[00:20:51] Who knows what they'll do and what they'll remember over those two months.

[00:20:54] Correct.

[00:20:55] And it's not about the intensity or you shouldn't feel intense on the customer side.

[00:20:59] It should be the right timing for them to actually be able to allocate the attention

[00:21:06] to the product.

[00:21:07] Otherwise, and, you know, hopefully your product is not something that the customer needs to

[00:21:12] sit 10 hours a day for seven days just to figure out what's going on, hopefully.

[00:21:16] But in other cases where it's simple to work and understand the value of the product, it should

[00:21:22] be something that the customer can take those two weeks and allocate enough time, half an hour

[00:21:28] a day or 10 minutes a day with your guidance, with you being kind of constantly consulting

[00:21:35] them, advising them, again, using emails, using different communications, maybe from within

[00:21:41] the product.

[00:21:42] Pendo, as example, is a great, you know, hidden tool to send messages from within the product.

[00:21:48] Now, if you have users that actually interact with the product throughout the POV, that's

[00:21:52] another way to kind of to utilize a tool you have, customer companies have, to interact with

[00:21:58] a prospect and send quote unquote hidden messages.

[00:22:02] Oh, you clicked on this.

[00:22:04] By the way, do this and that and it will give you more value.

[00:22:08] But it's staying top of mind.

[00:22:10] It's not letting the customer get distracted with the million other things they have any

[00:22:15] point in time, right?

[00:22:16] Because it's not like, oh, we're only evaluating, you know, I work for Morphysic.

[00:22:21] Only evaluating Morphysic.

[00:22:22] No, it never happens.

[00:22:24] Never.

[00:22:24] Yeah.

[00:22:24] I was working with a client recently and one of the SEs I thought had a good plan or a good

[00:22:30] idea that he, or a good way of doing this is that he would always get asked about, well,

[00:22:35] I need three weeks or two weeks or a month or whatever it might be, right?

[00:22:38] And what he would do is he would change the conversation and say, well, how long does it actually

[00:22:41] take to do this testing or this setup, right?

[00:22:45] So you say, look, I'm going to work with you two hours to do the setup.

[00:22:48] Then we'll do 30 minutes on, I don't know, that integration.

[00:22:51] And then to do the five things you want to test, each of those will take about 45 minutes

[00:22:57] or half an hour or an hour.

[00:22:58] So it's much more about can you find five hours over a week or two to get that done?

[00:23:03] And suddenly it's like, okay, I can do that, right?

[00:23:05] And they said, well, let's do that, but let's add in an extra little bit for buffer because

[00:23:08] you might want to bring someone else in.

[00:23:09] And so I'll give you this amount of time and that should be enough.

[00:23:12] I really liked how we brought it back to actually what they were going to do as opposed

[00:23:16] to just defaulting to, well, I need 30 days.

[00:23:18] So I love that approach and we do that as well.

[00:23:21] And I think for key elements of the POV of your product, you certainly need to identify

[00:23:28] them and be very guiding in those areas.

[00:23:32] So for example, deployment, if you need to deploy a product or integration, if your product

[00:23:36] includes integration, you're telling your customer very much upfront how much it will

[00:23:42] take and what needs to happen to make it successful.

[00:23:45] So let's get on a call.

[00:23:47] You know, it will take 10 minutes to deploy it.

[00:23:49] Let's get on a half an hour call to deploy.

[00:23:52] And here's what you need to prepare to come prepared to that call.

[00:23:55] When can we get that call so that you come prepared?

[00:23:58] It's not like you come to the call and, oh, sorry, I forgot to, I don't have an endpoint

[00:24:02] to deploy an agent.

[00:24:03] Okay.

[00:24:04] So back to the drawing board, right?

[00:24:07] Or same with the integration.

[00:24:08] Oh, I don't have the API keys to the other tools.

[00:24:10] So, okay.

[00:24:11] It doesn't help.

[00:24:12] So basically you need to be very consultative in terms of what is happening, how long it

[00:24:17] takes.

[00:24:18] I love that approach.

[00:24:19] Absolutely.

[00:24:19] And we do that.

[00:24:20] And at the end of the day, you want the customer to feel it's easy.

[00:24:24] You want to almost give it to them on a platter.

[00:24:29] What we, for instance, offer to our customers and Morphosec today, Morphosec does endpoint security.

[00:24:37] So testing Morphosec includes sometimes getting like malware samples and pretty sophisticated

[00:24:43] things that not all customers are comfortable with handling.

[00:24:47] We offer to almost guide them and provide them the whole thing.

[00:24:52] We don't give malware, actual malware samples, but we basically handhold them throughout the

[00:24:58] process of getting the malware that they can test on our product to make sure that the

[00:25:03] product works and see the value.

[00:25:05] And it's a very much, it's a complex task that we try to make as easy as possible on the

[00:25:12] customer.

[00:25:13] Now, one of the things that happens to everyone is the extending POC or POV.

[00:25:19] One more use case before we wrap it up.

[00:25:22] Any tips about how to handle that so it doesn't become too much of a burden?

[00:25:27] I think the reality is it's unavoidable if the customer wants an extension or if they haven't

[00:25:33] seen something.

[00:25:35] I think that the key in extensions is to define, again, same as going into POV, define what

[00:25:41] what is causing or what is the reason for that and what is the framework in terms of time and

[00:25:47] support that you'll need to provide to make it happen.

[00:25:51] What I see happening very often is like, oh, I need two more weeks.

[00:25:54] But what is going to happen in those two weeks?

[00:25:57] What is it that you're going to see or want to see in those two weeks that you haven't seen

[00:26:01] in the first two weeks?

[00:26:02] Let's talk about what is it that you're trying to achieve now.

[00:26:05] Now, if in the first two weeks that the POV was supposed to be going, nothing happened because

[00:26:11] the customer got other priorities, then it's a different story.

[00:26:15] And sometimes it happens.

[00:26:16] Listen, if there is an incident the customer needs to handle, they will not evaluate new

[00:26:20] products, right?

[00:26:21] That's kind of, I think it's fair.

[00:26:24] So if the initial POV timeframe shifted, that's one type of extension.

[00:26:29] And I think it's kind of, okay, fine.

[00:26:32] Let's make sure we all understand what we discussed in terms of timeline and scope.

[00:26:36] And let's try to guide them again.

[00:26:39] But hopefully if you do all the things we discussed up on the middle now and guide the

[00:26:42] customer and make sure that the timing is right and handhold them, you won't get to

[00:26:46] that type of extension.

[00:26:48] The other type is, no, I just want to poke around for two more weeks.

[00:26:51] In that kind of extension, you certainly need to drill down and understand what is it that

[00:26:57] the customer is not seeing.

[00:27:00] Very often that happens in bake-offs, in competitive situations.

[00:27:05] Like, okay, I finished the POV with you.

[00:27:08] I'm starting a POV with a competitor, but I still want to compare you side by side.

[00:27:13] And that's often, and in that case, he won't be actually doing anything in your product for

[00:27:18] the most part, probably, but they want to see results.

[00:27:22] So maybe you can provide some reporting that will help them get the results without having

[00:27:29] you running the product for two more weeks.

[00:27:31] And the reality is, if that is the case, the number one thing I'll say about extensions is

[00:27:37] it's a give and get situation.

[00:27:40] Okay, I'll give you more time.

[00:27:43] But I need to get something for that time that I'm giving you with a product.

[00:27:48] Be it if it's a competitive situation, understand more about the competitive kind of aspects

[00:27:54] of the deal and who is the competitor and how they are performing, et cetera.

[00:27:58] Now, I'm oversimplifying it.

[00:28:00] It's an art, right?

[00:28:01] It's not a kind of simple thing to do.

[00:28:03] But that's normally what I expect from my team is if there is an extension request, fine.

[00:28:10] But let's put it on the table that we need to get something in return to that additional

[00:28:17] time with the product.

[00:28:18] I like that, right?

[00:28:19] There's probably lots of different things that you could ask for in return that a reasonable

[00:28:22] person might think is okay, right?

[00:28:25] One of the things that I see, Alexei, is every product has...

[00:28:29] Well, not every product.

[00:28:31] Most products will have some part of it, which is the wow moment, right?

[00:28:35] It's the...

[00:28:36] This is the bit that we just do so well, right?

[00:28:39] Not always is it all that amazing first time you look at it, though.

[00:28:44] And I'm wondering any tips on setting up the POV or working with the technical team on the

[00:28:51] prospect site to make sure that bit comes out and is recognized.

[00:28:55] And that's difficult.

[00:28:57] It's a really...

[00:28:58] It's a great point, Andrew.

[00:28:59] You try to control the controllables in a POV, but if you deploy your product in a real

[00:29:04] customer environment and not in some sort of a lab setup where in a lab setup, you can

[00:29:08] basically sort of ensure that the wow moment happens because you can provide the environment

[00:29:14] for that best feature to shine, right?

[00:29:18] Basically, as example.

[00:29:19] In a real customer environment, it's difficult.

[00:29:23] And I think the best you could do is guide the customer through what you know that works

[00:29:29] best for your product.

[00:29:31] But the reality is that customers are customers.

[00:29:33] And even if they listen, they don't always do what you suggest they do.

[00:29:37] Normally, they don't.

[00:29:38] And it's a really good point.

[00:29:41] And sometimes it is difficult to shine the light on that great capability.

[00:29:46] Obviously, your demo should be doing an amazing job in showing that.

[00:29:50] But then come real life, like, oh, no, we don't have that specific thing.

[00:29:55] So it didn't trigger...

[00:29:57] Anyway.

[00:29:57] Yeah.

[00:29:58] I mean, the classic example is detection, right?

[00:29:59] It's like in a demo, you can show it detecting all sorts of stuff.

[00:30:03] You put it off a spam port of his appliance or you put it in their environment.

[00:30:06] It's like crickets, right?

[00:30:08] You say, well, the good news is you're not infected.

[00:30:11] There's no breach.

[00:30:12] The bad news is it's kind of dull when you look at the screen.

[00:30:15] Right.

[00:30:15] And so what we do, and I mentioned that earlier, what we do is we try to guide the customer

[00:30:20] with almost providing them like an ecosystem that will allow them to test us when they...

[00:30:25] Especially when they tell us that they are not quite sure how to test the product.

[00:30:30] It's not always possible.

[00:30:31] I'm not saying it's always possible, but it's something we strive to do and provide our customers

[00:30:37] with a framework, with very detailed guidance on how to basically what to throw at the product

[00:30:45] so it shows the value.

[00:30:47] Got it.

[00:30:48] Got it.

[00:30:48] Well, let's say that the evaluation part of the POC, we now fixed it.

[00:30:53] We've got much better criteria.

[00:30:55] We're getting the right deals in there.

[00:30:57] What is the best way at the end of the POV to make sure the right people are read in on

[00:31:02] the prospect side and get the right information to say, yeah, this went well.

[00:31:05] Here's the proof.

[00:31:06] And here's what it can do for us.

[00:31:08] Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:31:09] I think it doesn't come down to just one thing.

[00:31:12] You know, a leftover from a POV is something that I've been trying to get to an amazing state

[00:31:19] in every company I work for, but the reality is that it has to be very much tailored to

[00:31:24] every customer, every situation.

[00:31:25] So you can have like a template for a POV summary.

[00:31:28] You should have a template for a POV summary and you should make sure you're providing every

[00:31:33] single POV.

[00:31:34] But it doesn't mean that that template will be just plug and play and it will take five

[00:31:38] minutes at every single POV.

[00:31:40] It does require work.

[00:31:41] Every customer, every environment, every situation is unique in some way, form or shape.

[00:31:47] But that and you must provide some sort of a leftover and an executive summary, a POV summary,

[00:31:54] something that shows the value, shines the light, put the spotlight on the best features that

[00:32:01] hopefully you were able to show during the POV.

[00:32:03] And then at the same time, my opinion is that the SE work is not done when the POV is done.

[00:32:10] It might be done when we are, you know, in the last negotiation phases and procurement is

[00:32:16] already like issuing a PO.

[00:32:18] Yes, that's when you can kind of say, OK, we're done.

[00:32:21] But up until then, the SE should stay close at least to the technical, to the champion, not

[00:32:28] the economic buyer and keep providing value, whether it's specific to your product and

[00:32:34] technology or even sharing, you know, company research.

[00:32:38] A lot of the companies, even startups do a lot of internal independent research that

[00:32:41] is very valuable.

[00:32:42] You need to make sure that you remain top of mind.

[00:32:46] You, your company, your POV, because very often, by the way, and back to your initial original

[00:32:51] question, the success rate or the conversion rate from a POV to close one is if you did a

[00:32:57] POV and it wasn't the right timing because the budget is only next year cycle budget, customers

[00:33:02] just forget.

[00:33:03] And yes, it's difficult to keep and stay top of mind for a year if that's the timeframe we're

[00:33:09] talking about.

[00:33:10] But you need to try your best to do that.

[00:33:13] So maybe not send something every day because that's a lot of content and collateral to generate.

[00:33:18] But you need to stay top of mind and make sure the customer remembers who you are, what you

[00:33:25] do, and how you solve their problem or how you add to their security stack, their security

[00:33:32] program, and the value you bring.

[00:33:34] That's such a great point because at that point, I mean, you know so much about what they

[00:33:40] care about, what happened during the POCRV that they liked, that they latched onto.

[00:33:45] You know how they're justifying things internally because you're aligning the readout to that.

[00:33:51] At that point there, you know a lot.

[00:33:52] You can just say, okay, well, this might be a three-month or a six-month delay, but I want

[00:33:58] to every month reach out with something along these key things that they really value.

[00:34:03] And if it's a new feature in that area or a new capability or a new report or new data

[00:34:08] or a new research or a new something, there's your excuse to kind of keep front and center for

[00:34:12] them and show that you actually are thinking about them.

[00:34:14] A hundred percent.

[00:34:15] And even moreover, if there are, for example, very often during a POV, there are some new

[00:34:20] capabilities the customer or roadmap capabilities the customer requests that might become available

[00:34:26] in the next three months, but they're not available in the POV timeframe.

[00:34:29] Or sometimes you even go and develop specific things based on the feedback from a POV if you

[00:34:33] know that it's going to help you close it in the next quarter, right?

[00:34:36] So you want to stay top of mind and keep the customer informed that those things happen.

[00:34:43] You maybe even want to involve them.

[00:34:45] It's not a customer yet anymore, by the way, just don't forget it.

[00:34:48] It's a prospect.

[00:34:48] But you may still want to involve them as a design partner to some degree, although you

[00:34:54] already know what you're going to deliver.

[00:34:56] But at least have them read in on what's being developed if it's something that they deemed

[00:35:04] a meaningful capability throughout your interactions with them.

[00:35:08] Now, Alexi, I'm going to put you in the spot here.

[00:35:10] Tell us about a time where everything just went wrong in the POC.

[00:35:15] You showed up.

[00:35:17] I'm sure it happens more than we might imagine, right?

[00:35:20] Yeah, it happens all the time.

[00:35:22] And listen, I guess same as my expectations that SEs will stay involved post-POCs and my

[00:35:30] expectation is that SEs remain or not remain.

[00:35:33] They are involved in the pre-POC phase, in the qualification.

[00:35:37] Things go wrong all the time.

[00:35:40] I think if you manage things before and after, then if something goes wrong in the POV, you're

[00:35:45] in a much better place to manage that situation, to go get through it.

[00:35:52] But listen, there are cases when there was major bugs and issues and things didn't work

[00:35:58] at all.

[00:35:59] And I'm saying that not as an example of my current company, but in any company I work

[00:36:04] for.

[00:36:04] It happens.

[00:36:05] It's software, right?

[00:36:07] These things happen.

[00:36:08] I remember two things have happened to me in the past.

[00:36:11] One, on the IDS side, during a trial at POC, prospect finds out that they've got a problem.

[00:36:19] They've literally got things beaconing out from, in those days, from their data center

[00:36:23] and is going to countries in the world that it shouldn't be going to.

[00:36:26] And suddenly, people start coming in the room kind of thing.

[00:36:29] Well, who's this guy?

[00:36:30] Well, this guy is now the VP of this.

[00:36:32] And who's this guy?

[00:36:32] Well, that's the chief whatever.

[00:36:34] And suddenly, very senior people are looking at the screen going, what the heck's going

[00:36:38] on?

[00:36:38] It's kind of interesting.

[00:36:39] The other one that's really interesting was back in the day, selling DLP.

[00:36:43] So one of the things about DLP is you may well find out that there's sensitive data getting

[00:36:49] exfiltrated from your company by employees.

[00:36:52] And a good DLP process actually involves legal and involves HR and involves technical validation

[00:36:59] as well.

[00:37:00] Because often, you'll get results coming out saying that employee is doing things that

[00:37:05] they shouldn't be doing.

[00:37:06] And what I remember didn't happen all the time.

[00:37:10] There were certainly instances where there was people in the company who were involved

[00:37:15] after the POV because they found out that these things were happening.

[00:37:19] Kind of interesting, somehow, the reaches of your technology.

[00:37:21] Yeah.

[00:37:22] I mean, I have examples from different realms of cybersecurity, but similar situations with

[00:37:28] threat intelligence where you often find some small thing on a dark web, someone selling

[00:37:33] access to a company.

[00:37:35] And you happen to be talking to that customer.

[00:37:40] Or during a POV, some finding comes up and suddenly they go quiet.

[00:37:45] It's like, oh, what happened?

[00:37:47] What did I do?

[00:37:48] And apparently you hit the button that like, or the CEO social security number offered for

[00:37:53] sale on some marketplace or some data that was leaked, you know, identified by a product.

[00:38:00] And it's interesting to see some customers react to that as like, oh, I actually don't want

[00:38:05] to know about it.

[00:38:06] Maybe because if I know about it, now I need to do something about it.

[00:38:10] Up until five minutes ago, I didn't know about it.

[00:38:12] So now, now it's a problem.

[00:38:14] Yeah.

[00:38:14] I'm sure it happens more often than not.

[00:38:16] Well, Alexei, this has been great.

[00:38:17] Thanks you for joining us to advise the Cyber Donut exec team on how to do this.

[00:38:23] As a big thank you, you'll get some Cyber Donut swag.

[00:38:27] You got the Save Cyber Donut t-shirt coming your way as full payment for your extensive

[00:38:33] advice and knowledge built up over these years.

[00:38:36] If someone wants to get in touch, is LinkedIn the best way to get hold of you?

[00:38:39] Yes.

[00:38:40] LinkedIn is the best way to contact me.

[00:38:43] Thank you very much for having me, Andrew.

[00:38:45] I enjoyed the conversation.

[00:38:46] It's great.

[00:38:48] Great podcast.

[00:38:49] Thank you very much.

[00:38:50] Thank you.

[00:39:02] It would mean a lot to me and to the continued growth of the show if you'd help get the word

[00:39:07] at.

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