How to Hire Cybr Donut's GTM Leaders - Josh White, SVP of North America, Intaso

[00:00:00] Hey, it's Andrew. And just quickly before we start this episode, I want to tell you about one of my favorite podcasts. It's the Bare Knuckles and Brass Tax Podcast. Not only does it have a great name, it also has a really good format that's interesting. The two hosts are both named George. That's not what's interesting about it. It's that George K is on the vendor side and George A is a CISO on the customer side. And they have real conversations, sometimes with guests, about the world of vendor customer interaction.

[00:00:30] They're not afraid to call out bad behavior on both sides and talk about the weird and wonderful nature of this world of ours in cybersecurity. Recent favorites of mine are the one about building trust called taking a flamethrower to FUD and buzzword mumbo jumbo. And also the one with someone who's a field CISO and advisor to startups called how security buyers think and go to market strategies for young companies. I'm not getting paid for this promo. I just really enjoy the show that two Georges put on.

[00:01:00] Check it out. It's the Bare Knuckles and Brass Tax Podcast. Now on with this episode.

[00:01:30] So that's why Josh White, the SPP of North America for Intasso joins us today. Josh routinely works with and advises CEOs and go-to-market leaders on their hiring. And in this episode, he does a saying for Bill Wallace, who's the CEO of Cyber Donut. He surprisingly advises Bill not to hire one of the go-to-market leaders that he's thinking about right now.

[00:02:00] So listen to find out which one and why. And he talks about things like candidate profiles, timing of hires, how to select and go through the process. And also importantly, the real candy, which is how much Bill should expect to pay these go-to-market leaders when they come into the company.

[00:02:18] I'm Andrew Monaghan, and this is the Cyber Security Go-to-Market Podcast, where we tackle the question, how can Cyber Donut get to 10 million in ARR by the end of 2025?

[00:02:39] All right, well, Josh, here we are. Welcome to the podcast and welcome everyone back. As we follow the journey of Cyber Donut, as we've talked about before, Cyber Donut's in a crunch.

[00:02:49] They have to hit 10 million dollars of ARR by the end of next year. Otherwise, they will shut down.

[00:02:54] The VCs have said that there's only so much money around and they need to figure out, they go-to-market, they need to figure out the product market fit,

[00:03:01] they go-to-market fit and basically be a company that they feel like might actually make it by the end of next year.

[00:03:07] So it's a bit of a stretch. Now, for those following along on the Cyber Donut website, that's C-Y-B-R-Donut, D-O-N-U-T dot com.

[00:03:16] We got the numbers on there, so we know how we're doing. We just wrapped up Q3 2024.

[00:03:22] Good and bad news. So we missed the revenue number. So the new ARR was only 332K.

[00:03:29] We added four customers in Q3. I think the number we were shooting for was more like 500 or 600.

[00:03:34] I forget exactly what it was, but we were way short of that.

[00:03:37] Good news, slight better news, is we actually met the pipeline, the new pipeline-generated goal.

[00:03:44] So you added 1.45 million in total pipe added in the quarter.

[00:03:48] So I think it was pretty much at number or just short of it, maybe.

[00:03:51] So right about the right sort of number.

[00:03:52] When you go to the board, it's pretty much we hit the number, right?

[00:03:54] If you're within a few percentage points, we call that good.

[00:03:58] And so we got a mixed bag, right?

[00:04:00] And as you go down and look at the headcount, we've still got our sales leader in place.

[00:04:05] We don't have a marketing leader.

[00:04:06] We lost one of the AEs actually in the quarter.

[00:04:09] So we went down from six to five AEs.

[00:04:12] That guy decided it wasn't the right place for him and moved on.

[00:04:15] A couple of SDRs, SEs, you can read along on the website.

[00:04:18] Go to the website and scroll down.

[00:04:20] You'll see all these numbers laid out quarter by quarter.

[00:04:23] So we can track along and see how we're doing.

[00:04:25] The relevance for this conversation is an interesting one, though.

[00:04:29] So Bill Wallace, who is the founder, CEO, he actually decided at the end of last year that he wanted someone to be the sales leader, but he didn't get someone too senior.

[00:04:41] He basically had someone who had been a first-line manager somewhere else and brought them in.

[00:04:46] And he knew that wasn't his strong point.

[00:04:48] So he wanted someone who was a bit more of an execution-type person in sales and could bring on a couple of good people.

[00:04:54] So that sales leader came on board.

[00:04:57] Really, director level probably is the right kind of way to think about it as opposed to VP or CRO.

[00:05:02] So he decided, Bill decided not to hire a marketing leader, right?

[00:05:06] But he's had a demand gen person, product marketing person, and that's it.

[00:05:12] So he's had two there.

[00:05:13] And now Bill's kind of feeling the crunch, right?

[00:05:15] He's like, oh, crap, you know, we've got to get this whole thing figured out.

[00:05:18] And he's feeling like, the way that he's feeling is, I really feel like I need to add in a proper sales leader,

[00:05:26] bring someone in who has maybe done this kind of 0 to 10 million before or 1 to 10 million before.

[00:05:33] That's what he feels like is the right thing to do.

[00:05:34] And because Pipeline is going to be, you know, Pipeline is a big hole right now.

[00:05:38] Although we had the number, we're still way off, right?

[00:05:40] We were supposed to add an incremental, I think, 7 or 8 million in ARR next year.

[00:05:45] And we're sitting here with a total pipe of only 4 million, right?

[00:05:47] So we've got a problem, right?

[00:05:48] So he's thinking, well, why don't I bring in a proper CMO as the person coming in to actually take hold of this?

[00:05:56] And, you know, make sure the programs are running are going to be high impact and go from there.

[00:06:00] So that's what he's feeling like, right?

[00:06:01] He's feeling like he needs to add a couple of pretty senior heads into the go-to-market engine.

[00:06:07] As you hear that, given your background, you're the SVP of North America in Tasso.

[00:06:12] As you hear that from Bill, is that familiar thing that you hear from CEOs?

[00:06:17] Is that common?

[00:06:18] Are you sitting there nodding your head and going, yeah, this happens all the time?

[00:06:21] Yeah, I think it's very common.

[00:06:23] And, you know, most startups will have not one, not two, not three.

[00:06:29] They'll have multiple points in their life where you've got a CEO founder like Bill who's sat there looking at the revenue targets.

[00:06:41] And, you know, a lot of the time, you know, the bills of the world sometimes have more technical backgrounds as opposed to sales backgrounds.

[00:06:47] So they're sort of scratching their head.

[00:06:50] And I think part of their challenge is not knowing how to challenge the sales leader that they have in place today.

[00:06:59] Okay, tell me more about that.

[00:07:00] Well, I think in this case, there is a high likelihood that this may be the first sales leader that Bill has managed.

[00:07:10] And so the challenging thing about managing someone in sales is salespeople are very charismatic, right?

[00:07:18] And if there's one thing they're really good at, it's selling themselves, selling their position.

[00:07:25] And, you know, I'm sure the upward management is very good, right?

[00:07:29] Like, hey, Bill, I know it's a big number next year, but if we just hire a couple more AEs, I reckon we got this.

[00:07:36] And maybe that's what's happening, right?

[00:07:37] I don't know.

[00:07:38] Yeah.

[00:07:39] And I like to think about this inflection point as do we need someone who's going to bring more process, more strategy, someone who is going to make Bill feel more assured that the goals next year are more likely to be met?

[00:07:59] Well, let's talk about that then.

[00:08:00] If you look at these numbers, right?

[00:08:02] So in the first quarter, they added three customers, then next one, four, and then four.

[00:08:06] So he's kind of flatlined a little bit, adding four customers a quarter.

[00:08:10] It's not bad, right?

[00:08:10] These are real live bank customers.

[00:08:12] They're not friends of Bill's, right?

[00:08:13] These are proper customers.

[00:08:15] That's kind of good.

[00:08:17] Missed the revenue number pretty big, though.

[00:08:19] So I think Bill...

[00:08:20] Not friends of investors either.

[00:08:22] Right.

[00:08:22] No, these are, you know, we've done some programs.

[00:08:24] We've been dialing for dollars or emailing for dollars, whatever it might be.

[00:08:29] And we've got some progress, right?

[00:08:31] But, you know, you look at Q3, we missed the actual revenue number, even though we added four customers.

[00:08:36] We missed it.

[00:08:37] And maybe as you're saying, right, Bill kind of doesn't know that much about sales.

[00:08:41] He's feeling a little bit nervous, right?

[00:08:43] Is that what I want to do?

[00:08:44] I just need someone to come in and actually start delivering numbers.

[00:08:47] That's probably what he's thinking.

[00:08:49] I mean, we're not quite the scale yet to say we've got a motto where we need to bring in some process.

[00:08:54] It's probably more someone who maybe has that earlier stage.

[00:08:57] Let's deliver, you know, 10 more customers a quarter rather than four more a quarter.

[00:09:01] Yeah.

[00:09:02] I mean, it's that transition from having a player coach sales leader to having someone who is hired to do more, you know, more sales management.

[00:09:13] Yeah, no, I get that.

[00:09:15] And then would you say this is the right time to bring in, if he did bring in a leader and he did bring a CMO or a VP of marketing person, is this the right time?

[00:09:24] Do you think that it's good enough to get those two in or would you delay one before you get the other?

[00:09:28] I think, you know, there might be some marketers who would disagree with me right now.

[00:09:36] But you've got a demand generation person.

[00:09:38] You've got a product marketing person.

[00:09:40] You're arguably better off holding off on the CMO, VP of marketing headcount and having a, you know, maybe a VP of sales, CRO, who's also, you know, had exposure to leading marketing before.

[00:09:58] I mean, that does exist and I know it can be a controversial topic, but then you've got an opportunity to maybe invest in someone to do content marketing or invest in another, you know, two AEs.

[00:10:11] I mean, that could be, those could be the sort of game changing headcount.

[00:10:15] Yeah, you're not short of finding salespeople who could tell mark their side of market, right?

[00:10:19] It's a skill set that we have as salespeople.

[00:10:22] We know how to do the easy stuff, right?

[00:10:24] The marketing stuff.

[00:10:26] That's insightful though, right?

[00:10:27] So, you know, CMO or VP of marketing, that's an expensive headcount.

[00:10:31] Maybe delay for a quarter or two and use that money.

[00:10:34] You could pump it in some programs.

[00:10:35] You could bring on a contractor, some of that to get some focus.

[00:10:38] But I think, what are bills feeling like?

[00:10:41] Yeah, but I don't know.

[00:10:42] I mean, maybe the sales leader might help out, but I myself as bill the CEO, you know, I don't really have the experience to know whether they'll be telling me are good programs to run or not.

[00:10:52] How would you advise them about that?

[00:10:54] I think for someone who feels like they're unsure whether to up-level a hire or sign off on a new VP, C-suite hire.

[00:11:06] First of all, they need to think about where they are at the moment, right?

[00:11:11] If they're looking at their current situation, the current person running sales, do they think that the challenge is that that person isn't up to the task?

[00:11:21] It may be that if they go out to the market and hire someone at the same level, but who they feel is, you know, got a better track record or, you know, that might suffice in this circumstance.

[00:11:33] The reality is, I think most companies invest in a CRO or a CMO because they're stuck.

[00:11:43] They invest in that hire because they look to it as a silver bullet.

[00:11:47] I placed a CRO recently and he said to me, he said, Josh, this is one of the first times where I feel like I've been hired to actually do the type of job that will influence, right?

[00:12:03] Like, usually I'm hired and I get in there and I realize that, oh, the technology doesn't work or there's no product market fit.

[00:12:11] I mean, these are things that, you know, that individual can obviously help with, but without a product or an engineering background, he's not going to make the technology work.

[00:12:20] And product market fit is a challenging one because yes, I mean, look, sales and marketing can obviously help you in regard to that.

[00:12:28] But sometimes you're solving a problem that doesn't need to be solved yet, right?

[00:12:33] The market maturity.

[00:12:35] Do you hear from your CRO candidates?

[00:12:39] Are they really zeroing in on that whole thing?

[00:12:43] Like, how do I know this company really has the traction and is ready to get the traction that they think they deserve?

[00:12:48] Yeah, I think for anyone who, you know, it usually takes for someone to get burnt once, right?

[00:12:56] Like, usually I don't think I know a CRO sales leader who's joined a startup and, you know, two months in has very quickly realized they don't need me.

[00:13:08] You know, we've got problems that mean that I can keep scaling sales.

[00:13:12] But if the, you know, the technology or the market doesn't catch up, then, you know, we're a year or two off.

[00:13:18] And I'm not saying we're never going to get there, but maybe we're a year off from me.

[00:13:21] Maybe we're two years off from me.

[00:13:23] So I think when someone's had that experience before, it does become really important to them because, you know, being a CRO, CMO, being a revenue leader is a really tough grind in a startup.

[00:13:36] And not all startups are created equal.

[00:13:40] How would they know, though, Josh, right?

[00:13:42] You talk about how the sales people are good at managing up and, you know, putting a positive spin.

[00:13:46] There's no one who gives more positive spin than the founder, usually, about how great things are.

[00:13:50] We just need someone to come in and fix a couple of things and we're going to take off, right?

[00:13:54] So how does a CRO know and cut through the BS and really know what's going on?

[00:13:58] I honestly think from that perspective, what they really need to do is talk to some customers.

[00:14:06] I think it's a very reasonable ask for a potential hire to say, hey, can you set me up with, you know, three customers that aren't affiliated with any of your investors, right?

[00:14:21] And have those conversations and understand why they bought it, you know, what else they looked at, the value it's bringing.

[00:14:31] Like, I think if you can really get to the, you know, if you can really get under the hood on those things, then that really helps you qualify whether or not they've really got something that you can scale.

[00:14:44] And it's scalable. And look, there's other, there's loads of other market research that you should be doing, right?

[00:14:50] It's funny, as you were talking there, I reminded myself a conversation I had with a head of sales last year.

[00:14:56] So he actually just ended up, landed a CRO gig somewhere just now.

[00:15:01] And I was asking him, like, you know, when you go to your next, how will you pick, you know, the company, right?

[00:15:06] More like market and company fit, things like that.

[00:15:08] But anyway, it came out that part of his process is, yes, he may also ask for customers, but what he does himself is he goes to his network and sets up for the company he's considering five calls.

[00:15:23] He goes, I'll just set these up for you, right?

[00:15:25] My only deal is I sit in on the call, right?

[00:15:27] And so he sits on the call, he gets a chance to assess how they're pitching it, how they're talking.

[00:15:33] And these are friendlies of his.

[00:15:34] So he goes to them afterwards and said, okay, what do you think?

[00:15:36] Is this, do you even need this stuff?

[00:15:38] How high a priority is it?

[00:15:40] Things like that.

[00:15:41] You know, you're going to have a good network to be able to do that and they'll want to help you out.

[00:15:43] And I think he's built up that trust over many years.

[00:15:45] But I love that approach, right?

[00:15:47] Because you're in control at that point about, you know, who you're talking to.

[00:15:51] There's no downside for the customer because they get a top to five new prospects potentially, right?

[00:15:56] You know, if you don't land your CRO, it's not the end of the world.

[00:16:00] You might have some more sales cycles going.

[00:16:02] I think the real big thing there is it's just about being really thorough with due diligence.

[00:16:09] And sometimes, you know, you get caught up in the charisma of the founder, of the enthusiasm,

[00:16:16] of the investors, of the, you know, the two or three sort of, you know, big logos that are on the website.

[00:16:23] And, you know, the comp package and the equity they're talking about.

[00:16:27] And the, hey, we're going to, you know, we're going to blow this thing up and sell it in four years.

[00:16:31] Or we're going to IPO.

[00:16:32] And the danger is when you do get excited, that's when your guard's down, right?

[00:16:38] Yeah, you get the post of LinkedIn with the LFG and the rocket ship emoji.

[00:16:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:16:44] A few fire emojis.

[00:16:47] Yeah.

[00:16:48] So let's talk about this.

[00:16:49] So we kind of put the marketing higher on hold, right?

[00:16:53] Let's just say we're going to wait for that.

[00:16:54] We do want to bring in, Bill does want to bring in his proper sales leader.

[00:16:59] What profile would you recommend that Bill looks at of that leader?

[00:17:05] I mean, looking at the team size right now, you know, we've got five AEs, we've got two SDRs, two SEs.

[00:17:13] We've got a CAM, we've got a RevOps person.

[00:17:17] You know, we've got a decent enough size team that I would say I probably wouldn't hand out a CRO title at this point.

[00:17:24] And I do think this is an important distinction because there will come another point,

[00:17:29] providing that Cyberdonut meet their goals next year and they get more investment,

[00:17:34] there's going to be a point where this conversation is happening again.

[00:17:39] But we're saying they're stuck at 12 million and they want to get to 25 or they can't raise their next round of funding.

[00:17:45] And if you hire a CRO now, then it means that you can't easily hire one later without causing some upset.

[00:17:53] So what I would do personally is pitch it as a VP of sales role.

[00:18:00] You know, I mean, I'm sure the right person might talk you into giving away the CRO title,

[00:18:06] but that might not be my recommendation from the first instance.

[00:18:10] VP of sales role, someone who has done a similar stage company.

[00:18:16] It doesn't need to be that they've done one to 10.

[00:18:19] And it could be that they've done, you know, actually five to five to 20 might be more interesting,

[00:18:24] but it's not going to be someone who's done, you know, who's been a cog in a much larger business.

[00:18:30] Definitely someone who's got a real appreciation for sales process and sales methodology,

[00:18:37] all the stuff that you're great at, right?

[00:18:41] Someone who is going to be able to help drive closing more business.

[00:18:48] Because, you know, I think you referred to it earlier.

[00:18:51] When you look at the, we look at the qualified pipeline and you look at how much they're closing.

[00:18:55] I mean, it's not, it could be a lot better.

[00:18:58] The other thing too is look for someone who, whilst they have great sales management skills

[00:19:06] and a focus on all of that good stuff, sales process, sales methodology,

[00:19:12] someone who wants to be out in the field with people.

[00:19:14] Because at the end of the day, like for a lot of these AEs,

[00:19:18] I mean, a 15 person go to market org, you're going to be out there trying to close every deal,

[00:19:24] whether it's a, you know, 50K deal or, you know,

[00:19:28] or you're about to try and close your biggest ever at 250.

[00:19:31] Like you're going to need to be there.

[00:19:33] Yeah. I feel like at this stage, the head of sales should be all over every deal.

[00:19:38] The, you know, every possible deal should be all over that.

[00:19:41] You can't sit there and say to the board, well, you know,

[00:19:44] I didn't go to that meeting or I wasn't really involved, right?

[00:19:46] It's, it's, you want to be there, you want to help drive it and give the credit to the AE, right?

[00:19:51] You want to make sure that they do that.

[00:19:53] Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:19:54] You know, in the, and in the, in the wrong circumstance,

[00:19:58] someone, you know, might feel like their pipeline is being micromanaged,

[00:20:02] micromanaged, but really what they need to look at it at is, you know, the right,

[00:20:07] the right sales leader, who's really going to move the,

[00:20:10] move the dial for a company like Cyberdonut is going to be the person that means that

[00:20:15] your win rate increases because they're bringing, it's not just about credibility, right?

[00:20:21] But it's about experience.

[00:20:22] It's about having the nerve to say, yeah, we're not going to drop five percentage points.

[00:20:28] We know that your team, you know, you're sat there with procurement and procurement are trying

[00:20:33] to hammer you down.

[00:20:34] And actually those, those little things make a real difference.

[00:20:37] Now, would you advise Bill to stay with someone inside cybersecurity or to look beyond cyber

[00:20:43] somewhere?

[00:20:44] I would say that someone from cyber is, is, is critical.

[00:20:50] Why is that?

[00:20:50] There's a couple of reasons.

[00:20:52] One, the chances are that they, and look, I don't think that the, you know,

[00:20:58] Rolodexes are the, are what they used to be, because I think the world's changed and selling's

[00:21:03] changed a lot.

[00:21:04] But someone who's got some relationships is going to make a big difference, right?

[00:21:09] Like if they can help you open a few more doors in some large enterprise customers,

[00:21:13] that's a game changer.

[00:21:15] Someone who knows the partner ecosystem.

[00:21:17] Again, that is such a big multiplier and such a big opportunity for a small startup like

[00:21:22] Cyberdonut.

[00:21:23] And finally, when you think about hiring, I mean, building an entire team through me is

[00:21:28] expensive, right?

[00:21:30] If you hire a VP of sales who doesn't come from cyber, they're not going to bring a network

[00:21:35] of people they could bring with you, with them, right?

[00:21:37] If you hire someone from cybersecurity, then they're so much more likely to have all of these

[00:21:43] great people that they've worked with before, that they trust, that they've got, you know,

[00:21:46] buying from who can come and work with Cyberdonut too.

[00:21:50] So it's going to reduce your headhunter spend dramatically.

[00:21:56] All right, Josh, let's get to know you a little bit better.

[00:21:59] I've got, believe it or not, 49 questions on my list right here.

[00:22:04] The good news is I don't ask you 49 questions.

[00:22:07] I'm going to spin this wheel and it's going to have three completely random questions for

[00:22:12] you.

[00:22:13] And as a long time listener to the podcast, you'll know that our advanced algorithm that

[00:22:18] does all sorts of ML and AI stuff makes sure that the questions that we get to spit out

[00:22:24] are completely random.

[00:22:25] And we can ensure the integrity of the whole system by doing that, right?

[00:22:30] So I'm going to spin this wheel.

[00:22:31] I'm going to see what questions it comes up with.

[00:22:33] Are you ready to go?

[00:22:34] Yeah, good to go.

[00:22:40] Oh, that doesn't happen very often.

[00:22:41] Question number one is how did you make money as a kid?

[00:22:47] Honestly, I was one of those kids that got into like all sorts of different stuff from

[00:22:52] like just like going around my parents' house, finding, you know, bits and bobs to sell like

[00:22:58] old like Sky, you know, cable boxes.

[00:23:01] I used to order headphones on eBay and then go around school selling them.

[00:23:06] But yeah, I got my first job when I was technically a kid.

[00:23:10] I think I was 15 years old working in a house of Fraser, a department store in England selling

[00:23:16] suitcases.

[00:23:17] So yeah, I would say I was, sales was the only route for me pretty early on.

[00:23:23] And which part of the world, which part of England were you in?

[00:23:27] I grew up in Farnborough in Hampshire.

[00:23:30] So about an hour south of London.

[00:23:32] Famous for his air show.

[00:23:33] Exactly.

[00:23:34] Yeah.

[00:23:34] Which for most people is quite an exciting thing.

[00:23:37] For me growing up, I used to just complain about it.

[00:23:40] Even though like when you're a kid, it meant that you got like the afternoons off for like

[00:23:45] a week.

[00:23:45] So that was pretty good.

[00:23:46] But besides that, traffic and noise.

[00:23:49] Noise for sure, I would imagine.

[00:23:51] All right, let's move on to the next question.

[00:23:52] Let me spin the random wheel of greatness here.

[00:23:56] Here we go.

[00:24:01] All right.

[00:24:02] Number 37.

[00:24:03] What's an embarrassing or memorable moment in your career so far?

[00:24:08] Yeah, I actually, I have one a few years ago.

[00:24:11] So I, I think it was like, you know, around the holidays, I realized I've been really head

[00:24:16] down delivering on a load of searches.

[00:24:18] I hadn't been in touch with a lot of my network.

[00:24:20] So I thought, you know what?

[00:24:22] I'll send out one of those famous mass emails from a CRM saying like, does anyone want to

[00:24:27] catch up?

[00:24:28] And just completely did the wrong thing with like the first name thing.

[00:24:32] So I ended up sending an email to like 200 people who knew me saying hello, first name.

[00:24:39] And I mean, there's a lot of good stories that came off the back of it.

[00:24:43] But incredibly, most of it was people calling me to laugh at me.

[00:24:48] That was the first part of it.

[00:24:49] And then the second part of it was I actually ended up picking up quite a lot of business

[00:24:54] off the back of it.

[00:24:55] Like I probably had like three or four people that were like weird email, Josh.

[00:25:00] Not sure that's what you meant to do, but do you want to help me with this job?

[00:25:04] So, you know, it was embarrassing, but it worked out.

[00:25:07] No, that one worked out for sure.

[00:25:09] All right, let's go with the next question.

[00:25:11] We spin the wheel here.

[00:25:18] All right.

[00:25:18] Number 21.

[00:25:20] What is the story behind your first or getting your first job in the cybersecurity world?

[00:25:26] Yeah, I was, I was a finance transformation headhunter in the UK and the company that

[00:25:34] I worked for at the time were looking for, you know, I was asked to come out to the US.

[00:25:39] They wanted to open up in the US.

[00:25:41] And I thought we were going to do finance transformation again, which was a market that I knew really

[00:25:45] well.

[00:25:45] And then they sort of said, hey, I think we're going to do the cybersecurity thing.

[00:25:49] I knew basically nothing about it until I got here, which was five years ago, October.

[00:25:56] Five years ago in October, you moved out here to tell, was it financial integration positions?

[00:26:01] Is that what it was?

[00:26:01] Yeah, it was.

[00:26:02] It was.

[00:26:03] We used to, we used to like, we used to recruit people to do like large scale finance transformation

[00:26:09] programs.

[00:26:09] So ERP transformation, shared service centers.

[00:26:13] So, but anyway, like the world of recruiting for cybersecurity startups is, to be honest,

[00:26:19] way more, way more interesting.

[00:26:23] And, you know, I predominantly recruit for salespeople.

[00:26:26] So I get to, you know, talk to people that, quite frankly, I probably get on with better

[00:26:31] than maybe I got on with some of the finance execs.

[00:26:38] So we've looked at all the, let's call it the tangible things, experience, the background,

[00:26:44] you know, what they're at, things like that.

[00:26:46] What tips would you have for a bill to really get to know this person?

[00:26:50] Let's say they're down to, you know, a couple of people on the shortlist.

[00:26:53] How would you recommend a bill to go really get to know and get past the, you know, all

[00:26:57] the glossy stuff we talked about beforehand to really get to know the two candidates?

[00:27:00] Yeah, I think, I think if you're starting to get serious, you should go spend some time

[00:27:05] in person, you know, and I think, I think at that point it's appropriate to, you know,

[00:27:11] spend a couple of hours, do some sort of, you know, some whiteboarding, if that's what

[00:27:15] you're feeling, you know, go for a lunch, go for a dinner.

[00:27:19] I think it's making an effort to try and to simulate what a working relationship might

[00:27:26] feel like, but also what a working personal relationship would look like, you know, get

[00:27:31] to know what, I think what a CEO founder really needs to do is get to know that person, what's

[00:27:38] motivating them, why are they doing this?

[00:27:40] Why, you know, they've done it before and they've, they've probably had some wins and

[00:27:43] some losses.

[00:27:44] Why, why do they want to do it again?

[00:27:46] Are they crazy?

[00:27:47] Like, have they not, have they looked at Cyber Donuts, you know, progress and thought,

[00:27:52] oh yeah, a mil to a mil to 10, 10 mil in a, in a, in a year.

[00:27:56] I mean, that's, that's a, it's tall order, right?

[00:27:59] And you often sit in the middle of Josh, right?

[00:28:02] So you're there, you're like a counselor, right?

[00:28:05] In between the founder and the CRO candidates.

[00:28:08] What do you see as you're trying to bring them together?

[00:28:13] What are you, what, what data points or, or personality points are you looking at to say,

[00:28:18] I want to, you, cause you want to make sure the right people match up.

[00:28:20] You don't want to, you know, have someone jammed down their throats and just hope it sticks.

[00:28:24] Right.

[00:28:24] Yeah.

[00:28:25] I think, um, look, there's, there's lots of, there's lots of questions that, that I ask

[00:28:31] people, you know, I, I can say to someone, you know, what's it, what's it like to work

[00:28:36] for you?

[00:28:36] Right.

[00:28:37] And they'll give me a perspective, but it's really, um, through multiple meetings is when

[00:28:42] I really start to get a feel for, for someone's, for someone's personality.

[00:28:46] And I also think that after someone, after, you know, after Bill's met two candidates through

[00:28:53] me and I start, you know, getting a feel for, right.

[00:28:56] What did he like?

[00:28:56] What did he dislike?

[00:28:58] What did he gravitate to?

[00:28:59] Why did he gravitate towards that?

[00:29:01] That that's when I, that's when I really start to build a, a good sort of benchmark on,

[00:29:07] on what they're really, you know, what's really important to them.

[00:29:10] Um, and I also think it's challenging, right?

[00:29:13] It's saying, Hey, you, you said you didn't like this person because of X, but I'm not

[00:29:20] sure whether that's right.

[00:29:21] Like, I think you should reconsider that.

[00:29:22] So I think through spending, through spending time with people through the process, you really

[00:29:27] start to learn what's going to work, but it's also, it's just getting a, getting a real

[00:29:31] feel for, for their culture and their working styles.

[00:29:33] You know, a lot of these CEOs, founders, I mean, they, they don't sleep, you know, they,

[00:29:38] they, they'll email you at 7 PM, 8 PM.

[00:29:42] And guess what?

[00:29:43] If you don't respond, you know, until 8 AM the next day, they're probably going to hold

[00:29:48] that against you.

[00:29:49] And I think, you know, I always talk about the good, the bad and the ugly.

[00:29:53] Right.

[00:29:53] And I met a, I met a CEO founder yesterday and he was, you know, they're looking at hiring

[00:29:58] their sort of first, I guess, three, four go to market people in the U S I said to him,

[00:30:04] yeah, what's the, what's the worst thing about working for you?

[00:30:07] And he was very honest that he's a bit of a maniac, you know, works all hours, you know,

[00:30:14] responds to stuff at bizarre times, very demanding.

[00:30:18] And I think the most important thing that I can do with that is not talk to a candidate

[00:30:23] and say, he's a great guy, very relaxed, you know, really values work life balance.

[00:30:30] The reality is I'm, you know, I'll go and say, look, he's probably going to work you like

[00:30:34] a dog and that was not for everyone.

[00:30:37] Right.

[00:30:37] Yeah.

[00:30:38] Some people gravitate towards that and go, yeah, that's my jam right now.

[00:30:41] I'm, you know, whatever.

[00:30:42] And some people can kind of run a mile in the other direction.

[00:30:44] Can you think of, you said before that you, you've had to challenge CEOs to say, well,

[00:30:49] do you really, really want that?

[00:30:51] Right.

[00:30:51] Can you think of an example where you've had to do that and what the outcome was?

[00:30:55] Yeah.

[00:30:55] I mean, I had one.

[00:30:57] I've, I've, I've definitely had ones where, I mean, the most, the most awkward one is when

[00:31:02] someone perceives that their business is more sexy than it is.

[00:31:08] That never happens, Josh.

[00:31:09] Come on.

[00:31:09] Finders, fighters never believe their stuff doesn't smell.

[00:31:12] Right.

[00:31:13] And, you know, you talk to, and it's, it's trying to articulate that, trying to educate

[00:31:18] them on, all right, I know that you want someone up here.

[00:31:22] Your business is, is here right now.

[00:31:25] So, you know, let's reset, reset our expectations.

[00:31:28] And why don't we look at some people here and see what you think.

[00:31:31] But at the end of the day, you know, sometimes, sometimes people want to be proved wrong for

[00:31:35] themselves, right?

[00:31:36] They want to go after the person who's the, you know, the, the A star, the dream hire

[00:31:42] for them.

[00:31:42] And sometimes they need to offer them for them to get rejected.

[00:31:46] And then for me to not say, I told you so, but say, all right, let's regroup.

[00:31:52] And let's consider looking at people, you know, that have done X instead of Y, you know, I

[00:31:58] mean, everyone tries to gamify hiring.

[00:32:01] So someone will look at a, a company that's done really well, right?

[00:32:07] A company that's had unicorn status that's, you know, been the fastest growing to, to a

[00:32:13] hundred million ARR, whatever that is.

[00:32:14] And they'll look at it and go, if I hire someone from there, that will happen to me.

[00:32:20] And that is the, that is the most common thing.

[00:32:22] I mean, and it's, it's not true.

[00:32:25] Well, I imagine if I'm Bill right now, right?

[00:32:27] Uh, you know, tough hire, right?

[00:32:29] Because as you say, in two years, they need to go from zero to 10 million ARR, right?

[00:32:34] That's basically what we're asking them to do.

[00:32:36] I might be sitting there going, you know, Josh, I need you to go and headhunt Colin Jones

[00:32:41] from Wiz, right?

[00:32:42] He was the first CRO, go get it, right?

[00:32:44] And you'll be sitting there going, dude, you're asking the zero to 10 million in two

[00:32:48] years.

[00:32:49] You know, you might want to just think about what that really means and who might take

[00:32:53] that on, right?

[00:32:54] Uh, it might be Colin, it might not be Colin, right?

[00:32:56] I don't know.

[00:32:57] Right.

[00:32:57] But, uh, you might want to, you know, dial down your expectations bill a little bit.

[00:33:00] Yeah.

[00:33:01] Yeah.

[00:33:01] I mean, the reality of what I do is, you know, I'm, I'm always very comfortable to, I always

[00:33:06] tell people, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm anything but a yes, man.

[00:33:09] I'll always be the first one to challenge you constructively.

[00:33:13] But if you tell me you want me to try and go after Colin at Wiz, I'll pick up the phone

[00:33:18] to Colin at Wiz and I'll let you know what he says.

[00:33:21] Right.

[00:33:22] And you might not want to know it.

[00:33:23] Yeah.

[00:33:24] Yeah.

[00:33:25] Yeah.

[00:33:25] A slight, slight different tangent.

[00:33:27] Uh, I, I talked to a founder a few months back and he decided not to hire a leader, but

[00:33:34] got, he actually went to his biggest competitor and hired what he called their top three or

[00:33:39] four salespeople.

[00:33:40] And he told me, he said within four months, three of the four had gone.

[00:33:44] He wasn't entirely clear.

[00:33:45] I got the impression he moved them on, right?

[00:33:47] His thing was they just weren't working out.

[00:33:49] They didn't deliver stuff or whatever.

[00:33:51] Uh, well, if you were to hear that, what are you thinking?

[00:33:54] And are you thinking, you know, maybe he didn't know how to manage them, how to work with them?

[00:33:58] Is it not a good idea to go after competitors people?

[00:34:01] I'm thinking that they probably, if he hired someone from a top competitor, that means that

[00:34:07] he's probably putting that competitor on a pedestal, right?

[00:34:10] So he's, he's impressed by what they've done and, you know, they want to replicate some of that success.

[00:34:16] And chances are they might have, um, you know, their products might be better.

[00:34:22] Uh, their, their infrastructure might be better.

[00:34:25] They might have more referenceable customers.

[00:34:28] They might have better, uh, sales support in terms of, you know, anything from tools to

[00:34:34] systems to, you know, whatever that might be.

[00:34:37] They might just have more reset resources.

[00:34:39] I mean, the biggest, the biggest reason I think why a lot of, you know, reps would do

[00:34:45] well at company a who have got to a hundred million, but not company B who are at, you know,

[00:34:52] a million ARR and want to be a hundred million ARR is exactly, is exactly the company B doesn't

[00:34:58] have the same hype around it.

[00:35:00] Yeah.

[00:35:00] People underestimate that.

[00:35:02] Um, one of the things I was talking to another leader recently, and he asked me the question,

[00:35:08] you know, would you go work for a company again?

[00:35:09] And I said, yeah, I might do.

[00:35:11] And then he said, so what would you look for?

[00:35:13] And one of the things I said is that I would be absolutely zeroed in on who are the CEO

[00:35:19] founders who have that thing, right?

[00:35:22] When they stand up, people stop and listen.

[00:35:25] When they, when they have a viewpoint, people nod and don't fall asleep, right?

[00:35:29] When, when they're in the room, there's the aura that had the command, they, they get the

[00:35:33] PR just naturally about who they are.

[00:35:35] Cause that makes your life so much easier when you're out there, when you have someone like

[00:35:40] that versus someone.

[00:35:42] And I've talked to CEOs like this on the, uh, on the podcast.

[00:35:45] I've probably had a couple that might qualify as this.

[00:35:47] So they're, they're very reserved and you can, uh, it's hard work.

[00:35:51] And when they listen, you're kind of wondering what you're having for dinner that night.

[00:35:55] You know, when you talk, when they talk, you're wondering what you're having dinner tonight.

[00:35:57] I know I'd rather have the former.

[00:35:59] That's for sure.

[00:36:00] Yeah.

[00:36:00] And it's, you know, I mean, I met someone recently, third time founder.

[00:36:05] It's going to be some of the easiest recruitment I ever do because, you know, the only thing that,

[00:36:10] you know, I mean, everyone wants to work for someone who's done it before.

[00:36:13] Or someone who's done it twice successfully and sold to big names in the industry.

[00:36:18] I mean, that is, that's the dream.

[00:36:20] Yeah.

[00:36:21] I remember final story on this and then we'll get on to the next topic.

[00:36:24] I, two years ago, I got on a call, got on an episode to record an interview with Eric

[00:36:30] Olden, who is the CEO at Strata, right?

[00:36:33] And I'm going to admit to it.

[00:36:34] I, if Eric's listened to this, I, you know, I'll tell him this, but I had a couple of calls

[00:36:38] before it, I was running very fast that day.

[00:36:41] I had some notes about who he was and what he'd done, but I didn't sit there for half

[00:36:45] an hour prepping as I should have done.

[00:36:47] I kind of cut on the call and I realized in the first five, 10 minutes of the call, this

[00:36:52] guy, this guy knows his shit, right?

[00:36:55] And I realized he said, yeah, he said, I built two identity companies already, sold them both

[00:37:00] to RSA for a 500 million and 700 million or something like that.

[00:37:03] This is my third go around, you know, and he showed up my little interview on my podcast,

[00:37:09] like four pages of notes.

[00:37:10] So what he wanted to talk about with the topics that we'd pretty ready to talk about, he was

[00:37:14] ready to go, right?

[00:37:15] I sat there just as you said, right?

[00:37:16] I sat there when here's a guy I would work for, right?

[00:37:18] This, he knows his shit.

[00:37:20] He knows how to get it done.

[00:37:21] He has some really interesting takes about how to do go to market, which I thought were

[00:37:24] very informed as opposed to, well, I just heard a dude at a conference last week

[00:37:28] say something like this, right?

[00:37:30] A very different experience or around Eric than some others.

[00:37:34] Yeah.

[00:37:35] Let's go back to Cyberdonut, right?

[00:37:37] So we could have narrowed down a little bit the type of person.

[00:37:42] How long for Bill, you know, he's been, he's just come out of Q3.

[00:37:46] He's a little panicked about the numbers.

[00:37:48] He's saying, I need to hire someone tomorrow, right?

[00:37:51] How long will it take Bill to get someone on board, do you think?

[00:37:54] Yeah, I mean, realistically, you're probably looking at two to three weeks of search.

[00:38:01] And I, you know, I'm not saying it's going to take me two, three weeks to find some people.

[00:38:05] I'll probably have people in the first few days, but you know, it's as we, as we sort

[00:38:09] of weed through people is, you know, I think by the end of the third week, you're probably

[00:38:14] going to have a, a sort of a group of people progressing beyond first, beyond second that

[00:38:19] you feel quite excited about.

[00:38:20] After that, it really, really depends on how long your interview process is.

[00:38:24] I, I recommend that really you should be getting interview processes wrapped up in two to three

[00:38:29] weeks.

[00:38:30] You know, CEOs, founders are busy, the investors that they probably need to meet are busy.

[00:38:35] So it doesn't always work out that way.

[00:38:37] If everything goes to plan, then, you know, you could have someone at the very earliest,

[00:38:43] probably six, seven weeks from, from commencing the search.

[00:38:46] If, if scheduling's a nightmare, if expectations are unrealistic, we could be still having this

[00:38:53] conversation two months later, three months later.

[00:38:57] That sounds like a bit of a nightmare for someone like Bill, right?

[00:38:59] Who's, who needs to deliver some results.

[00:39:01] You said something there interesting though.

[00:39:02] It depends on the process.

[00:39:04] You know, on, on sales LinkedIn these days, there's a lot of noise around never ending hiring

[00:39:09] processes and things like that.

[00:39:12] What are you seeing out there?

[00:39:13] Is that, is that real?

[00:39:13] Is that what's happening?

[00:39:14] Yeah.

[00:39:15] Yeah.

[00:39:15] I mean, I think it, I think it exists.

[00:39:18] You know, the most punchy processes tend to be four stages, you know, sales leadership

[00:39:24] though.

[00:39:24] Like, I don't think it's absurd if you're a, if you're hiring a sales leader to put them

[00:39:29] through a six, eight interview process.

[00:39:32] Right.

[00:39:32] And to be diligent with sort of back channeling.

[00:39:36] Um, you know, it's a big, it's a big hire.

[00:39:38] It's very important.

[00:39:39] You, you don't want to rush that.

[00:39:41] Yeah.

[00:39:42] So, you know, yeah, I think in some circumstances it is dragged out.

[00:39:45] I think the noise on LinkedIn about it is not always about leadership roles and much more

[00:39:51] about sort of, you know, junior roles, maybe even mid to senior level roles to a degree

[00:39:55] where people are just in, you know, just having decision paralysis.

[00:39:59] And you're seeing that you're seeing a lot of that in the last 18 months because the hiring

[00:40:04] market, the hiring landscape changed so, so much.

[00:40:07] You know, we had 2020, 2021, 2022 to a degree, big boom years, and then things kind of dropped

[00:40:14] right off.

[00:40:15] So there was a time where people were, you know, hiring like crazy and trying to push

[00:40:19] someone through four interviews in a week just to secure the talent.

[00:40:23] Cause it was a race for talent.

[00:40:25] Right now it's flipped.

[00:40:27] There's more people available.

[00:40:29] So guess what?

[00:40:30] Companies take their time a little bit more and they're a bit more choosy.

[00:40:34] Yeah.

[00:40:34] It feels like the, you have to get it balanced though.

[00:40:37] Cause you keep waiting and waiting for the best, the best candidate.

[00:40:40] Right.

[00:40:40] And you feel like, oh, there's going to be someone better next week.

[00:40:43] And you just never get to actually get someone on board.

[00:40:45] You must have to manage that process for people.

[00:40:47] Just the, the cost, the cost to the cost of getting it wrong is so high, but you know,

[00:40:54] realistically we don't, we don't get every hire, right?

[00:40:57] The most important thing.

[00:40:59] And I say this all the time.

[00:41:00] And I think sometimes people think it's counterintuitive advice from someone in my industry is,

[00:41:06] is firing fast is really important.

[00:41:08] And that is what I see that most startups aren't good at.

[00:41:13] They hold onto someone.

[00:41:15] They're so scared to not have someone in that role doing that work that they would almost

[00:41:20] rather have someone doing a mediocre job than not have someone.

[00:41:25] Yeah.

[00:41:25] Yeah.

[00:41:26] Warm body rather than nobody.

[00:41:27] Right.

[00:41:27] Yeah.

[00:41:28] Which, uh, you know, when you've got a small number of people, at least whether you can really

[00:41:31] afford to do that, if you're a large company, you can get away with that.

[00:41:34] And you know, we've seen that, right.

[00:41:35] But, uh, startups is different, but it creates, creates a toxicity in the, in the culture,

[00:41:41] right.

[00:41:41] Which slows down the whole business.

[00:41:43] Yeah.

[00:41:43] It permeates everywhere.

[00:41:45] It's like a cancer.

[00:41:46] Uh, speaking of things, which maybe startups might not be the best at, how do you help people

[00:41:51] or how do you assess interview processes and, and the intentionality around interviews?

[00:41:58] You know, what I've experienced before is we've got someone coming in today for this role.

[00:42:03] Will you talk to them for half an hour?

[00:42:04] Right.

[00:42:05] And then you go talk to them and they say, what do you think?

[00:42:07] This is no structure to, I don't know.

[00:42:09] So what do you see?

[00:42:10] How do you help you kind of not make the mistakes?

[00:42:12] Yeah.

[00:42:13] I mean, I always, I always do a bit of information gathering.

[00:42:16] Have you hired someone like this before?

[00:42:18] Um, you know, what, what, what things are you assessing through the process?

[00:42:22] And then from there, I'm able to, you know, give some advice and, and that, that makes

[00:42:27] a big difference.

[00:42:28] But you know, again, like I think the biggest thing that I really urge people to do is, is

[00:42:32] to prepare, like take the time to look at the person's profile, read, read their resume.

[00:42:39] I know that's old fashioned advice these days, but read the piece of paper, make notes on it,

[00:42:44] turn up to that interview as prepared as you would expect that other person.

[00:42:49] Because if that other person, you know, if the, if the person you're interviewing turn

[00:42:54] around and said, sorry, tell me what you guys do.

[00:42:56] You'd, you'd probably end it right there, right?

[00:42:59] You'd be like, how dare they turn up to an interview and not know, you know, you would

[00:43:04] be, you'd be infuriated.

[00:43:05] So I think, I think the biggest bit of advice I give is, is prepare for success.

[00:43:11] Yeah.

[00:43:11] That's so good.

[00:43:12] I think, um, I don't know if you have templates or things that you get the old, but I feel

[00:43:16] like people are crying out for that a little bit to say, here's the profile.

[00:43:19] We're looking for, here's the types of things you want to ask the person.

[00:43:23] Now we'll divide up who does what and, you know, come, come together afterwards.

[00:43:26] I feel like we're crying out for that sort of structure sometimes.

[00:43:29] So Josh, let's talk about one of probably the most important thing for people listening

[00:43:33] to this.

[00:43:34] Let's talk about comp.

[00:43:36] So we've got this VP of sales.

[00:43:38] They're, they're somewhat experienced.

[00:43:39] They might have done something early stage before with a bit of success.

[00:43:42] That's who we're looking at.

[00:43:44] Well, what are we paying these people these days?

[00:43:45] Let's talk about OTE.

[00:43:49] Wacky things, which might be in the comp package somewhere.

[00:43:52] I would, I would say, you know, for the, for the size of company we're talking about,

[00:43:56] we're probably looking at 400,000 OTE on the low end and 500,000 on the high end.

[00:44:04] In terms of factors that might change that, I mean, you know, maybe you're saying that

[00:44:09] someone who's at the higher end of the budget is in a, you know, is in San Francisco, is

[00:44:14] in New York.

[00:44:15] We might be saying that they are coming from a competitor, you know, lots of factors.

[00:44:20] Sometimes you, they might have some stock that they've got that they're walking away

[00:44:23] from.

[00:44:24] So they want something a little bit extra coming in, but yeah, 400 to 500 OTE on a 50, 50 split

[00:44:31] should absolutely get you someone here.

[00:44:34] Equity, equity is a funny one.

[00:44:36] There are, there are so many factors, you know, how much you've raised, how diluted there

[00:44:42] are, how many stocks, how many classes of stock there are.

[00:44:45] I've seen anything from, you know, for this sort of level, anywhere from 0.5 to probably

[00:44:51] two and a half percent, which, you know, I mean, is the, the more meaningful stuff I think

[00:44:57] is, you know, what the cliff is.

[00:44:59] I mean, the standard cliff is a year, right?

[00:45:01] So if you can get anything better than that, that's great because, you know, I mean, you

[00:45:05] look at the average tenure of a sales leader in cybersecurity is it's probably, probably

[00:45:09] 18 months roughly.

[00:45:11] So most people, you know, they get to their cliff and then maybe they get partly vested.

[00:45:15] Usually you're seeing a four-year vest.

[00:45:18] I've seen accelerated vesting schedules.

[00:45:20] They do exist.

[00:45:22] I think they're a great thing to negotiate if you can negotiate them.

[00:45:26] I think it's very mission centric.

[00:45:28] Like if the company says, Hey, we want to go from, in this case, if Cyberdonut said, look,

[00:45:33] we want to go from 15 customers to 50 customers.

[00:45:37] And then, you know, we think we're going to sell.

[00:45:39] Then you might say, well, you know, I think I want a two-year vest, not a four-year vest

[00:45:44] because, you know, if we sell in two years, I'm only going to be, you know, 50% vested.

[00:45:49] You've got accelerated vesting.

[00:45:50] So should the company go through a liquidity event, then your remaining shares get auto-vested.

[00:45:58] That's quite a tricky one to negotiate.

[00:46:01] We saw that a lot in 2020 and 2021 and parts of 2022.

[00:46:06] But with the market shifting, that's being given away a lot less now.

[00:46:11] I think severance is a really important thing that feels very awkward for people.

[00:46:17] I think for a VP of sales, for a VP of marketing, CRO, CMO, you know, the average tenure, as

[00:46:24] I said, is probably 18 months.

[00:46:26] And realistically in a market like today, it could take you six months on average to find

[00:46:32] a new gig.

[00:46:34] Sometimes you get fired from that role, not because you've done anything wrong, not because

[00:46:40] you're not good at your job, but because, hey, startups don't always work out, right?

[00:46:45] So I think negotiating, you know, at least six months severance is a really good thing

[00:46:50] to do.

[00:46:51] And would you get pushback from the founder CEO that I can't believe this person's asking

[00:46:55] for this?

[00:46:55] All the time.

[00:46:56] Yeah.

[00:46:57] And I've had it before where people have been like, you know, I can't believe that they'd

[00:47:02] ask for this.

[00:47:03] Like, are they planning to not work out?

[00:47:05] You know, I always like to explain it like football or soccer managers, right?

[00:47:11] Like you have, you have bought me in on a three year contract.

[00:47:15] If you choose to go a different direction within that three year period, then you're buying

[00:47:21] me out of the rest of my contract.

[00:47:23] If I choose, you know, if someone chooses to try and take me somewhere else, then they

[00:47:28] have to buy you out of this contract.

[00:47:30] I mean, that, that side of it happens less in our world, but definitely the, you know,

[00:47:34] the, the, the former, I think it's a, I think it's a good example.

[00:47:37] And you usually get the founders to kind of see the light on it a little bit and understand

[00:47:41] why the motivations are sometimes it's a hard no.

[00:47:44] It's 50, 50.

[00:47:45] I would say all of these things are, you know, I always think about everything as being different,

[00:47:50] different levers to pull, right?

[00:47:52] Like accelerated vesting, right?

[00:47:54] If you get that, but you don't get the severance, maybe that's a win.

[00:47:58] Right.

[00:47:59] Right.

[00:47:59] A lot of, I think the one thing that people don't realize is a lot of levers out there,

[00:48:03] right?

[00:48:03] And, you know, there's give and take and all the rest of it.

[00:48:06] You have to figure out how you're going to meet in the middle sometimes.

[00:48:08] The other thing is, is, is, um, is guarantees around, around compensation, right?

[00:48:13] You look at a company like Cyber Donut and, um, you know, I know lots of VPs of sales who,

[00:48:19] you know, who join in their, you know, their, I don't know, 200 K base.

[00:48:23] And they might not, you know, sometimes sales leaders don't start seeing bonuses until

[00:48:28] the teams at 70% of their number, which means, you know, they might have two, three quarters

[00:48:33] where they're making nothing but their base.

[00:48:35] I mean, I'm not saying it's not enough to live on, but if you're coming from a more established

[00:48:40] role where you've got run rate and you're, you know, you're earning commission and sales

[00:48:45] bonus every, every quarter to go into Cyber Donut where you've got a tall order.

[00:48:50] I mean, some guarantees around cash comp for the first six months is very reasonable because

[00:48:55] the work that you do isn't probably going to impact the number for the next quarter or

[00:49:00] two.

[00:49:01] Right.

[00:49:01] It's going to take a while for things to work out for sure.

[00:49:04] And, you know, look at this four orders a quarter.

[00:49:06] I mean, it's not zero, but it's not, not a lot.

[00:49:08] Yeah.

[00:49:08] You need a couple of those not to quite work out and suddenly you're, you're not doing

[00:49:12] too well.

[00:49:12] Right.

[00:49:13] Absolutely.

[00:49:14] Yeah.

[00:49:14] I can see that.

[00:49:15] Um, any weird or wacky stories, Josh, about, uh, situations you thought you got all

[00:49:20] buttoned up and they fell apart or weird demands from a founder or from a CRO that you kind

[00:49:26] of stretch your head out a little bit.

[00:49:27] Oh, so many.

[00:49:28] I mean, the biggest, the biggest, the most common one is just, um, is, is egos in the

[00:49:34] chase.

[00:49:34] You know, I've had it so many times where it's like, you know, the founder wants the

[00:49:39] candidate to say, I want you guys.

[00:49:42] And the candidate wants the, the candidate, you know, it's, it's, it's the vice versa.

[00:49:46] It's like neither party.

[00:49:47] Right.

[00:49:47] It's like, it's like, it's like the dating world, which I've not been in for a very long

[00:49:51] time, but it's like, you know, these, these people get to the, the third or fourth day

[00:49:55] and they haven't told each other that they like each other.

[00:50:00] And so I always say to people, look, put your, put your cards on the table.

[00:50:03] Like what's the worst that's going to happen.

[00:50:06] Right.

[00:50:06] It's quite, it's quite a vulnerable, vulnerable thing, hiring or hiring or taking a new job.

[00:50:12] Like we really open ourselves up a little bit.

[00:50:15] And I think, um, you know, it's in a, in a startup, you are always one good hire away

[00:50:22] from feeling like you've taken 10 steps forward.

[00:50:26] Or 10 steps back.

[00:50:27] Or 10 steps back.

[00:50:28] If you get it wrong.

[00:50:29] I bet.

[00:50:30] Well, on that note, Josh, thanks so much for joining us.

[00:50:33] We're going to give you the search for our VP of sales.

[00:50:37] He's going to deliver whiz like results.

[00:50:40] So, so we're going to give you a tall order to go out there.

[00:50:43] We're going to pay them below market rates, but expect the world from you.

[00:50:47] Thank you.

[00:50:47] Uh, so we're looking forward to bringing our new VP of sales onto Cyberdonut and start

[00:50:52] making a difference because God knows we need it.

[00:50:54] Right.

[00:50:55] We're going to go from right now, our AR is 1.2 million.

[00:50:58] You get up to 10 million in just five quarters.

[00:51:01] That's going to be tough to do, but we've got some great advisors.

[00:51:05] You've just joined the advisory board for, for Cyberdonut.

[00:51:09] We have some really cool people in there already.

[00:51:10] I've got my safe Cyberdonut swag on.

[00:51:13] Those are watching video.

[00:51:14] You can see that.

[00:51:15] How do I get myself one of those?

[00:51:17] Do I have to be successful with the search?

[00:51:19] You know what?

[00:51:20] Rather than pay you hard cash, Josh, I'm going to send you a t-shirt.

[00:51:23] Great.

[00:51:24] That's, that's what, uh, that's how much we pay our, our search, uh, partners these

[00:51:30] days.

[00:51:31] Uh, so a nice t-shirt is going to head off to Chicago for you.

[00:51:35] Okay.

[00:51:36] Thank you.

[00:51:37] Well, listen, thanks for joining.

[00:51:38] What's the best way to get ahold of you, Josh?

[00:51:40] Uh, LinkedIn.

[00:51:41] I am, uh, yeah, busy on it, noisy on it.

[00:51:44] So that is a good place to see me.

[00:51:45] You're a very reasoned and logical and balanced person on LinkedIn.

[00:51:50] I'm like a lot of it.

[00:51:51] So I commend you for that.

[00:51:52] So, uh, anyway, that's how people get ahold of you and, uh, talk to you next time.

[00:51:56] All right.

[00:51:57] See you soon, Andrew.

[00:51:57] Thank you.

[00:52:10] It will mean a lot to me and to the continued growth of the show.

[00:52:14] If you'd help get the word out.

[00:52:16] So how do you do that easily?

[00:52:18] There are two ways.

[00:52:19] Firstly, just simply send a link to a friend, send a link to the show, to this episode.

[00:52:25] Um, you can email it, text it, Slack it, whatever works for you.

[00:52:29] And it's easy for you.

[00:52:30] The second way is to leave a super quick rating.

[00:52:33] And sometimes that can seem complicated.

[00:52:35] So I've made it as easy for you as I can.

[00:52:37] You simply have to go to rate this podcast.com slash cyber.

[00:52:44] That's rate this podcast.com slash cyber.

[00:52:47] And it explains exactly how to do it.

[00:52:49] Either of these ways will take you less than 30 seconds to do,

[00:52:52] and it will mean the world to me.

[00:52:54] So thank you.